what? no one reasonable is saying all russians are bad or all americans are bad. being born in a country does not automatically make you a fan of what their military does, that’s just racist
I don’t think you know what racist means.
Splitting hairs. If you think a group of people are intrinsically worse than others, you are effectively racist.
We can come up with new names, but ultimately it’s all the same. If you think racism means black vs white then your understanding is kindergarten level.
If you prefer, we can use the term bigoted. That term also covers other intrinsic groups like trans, gay and disabled people among others.
I think that Americans, as a group of people, are intrinsically worse than all other people yes. Americans, as a group of people, paid for and enacted a campaign that overthrew the democracy in the country where my dad is from and invaded the country my mom is from and killed a million people including my extended relatives.
So yeah, fuck Americans. Death to America. Cry more about it. Maybe if you as a group did fuck all about it I’d feel different but you don’t you just sit here judging others as if you aren’t the worst people on earth and the global villains.
When a country does war crimes, the entirety of its populace is not to blame, the systems, power structures and people in charge are.
Most people in a country are not for wars or other attacking other countries. This is true for America and Russia alike, to the best of my knowledge (which granted, is anecdotal).
More people should be engaged in activism and should push back against the inhumane actions of their state, and people should be less gullible to the promises of their leaders.
Both America and Russia are overdue for major reform. Their systems are broken and many of their people brainwashed. Wishing harm on them does not help and imo is not a constructive approach. If anything, hate just begets more hate, making things worse.
If you are going to have hate, it should be more focused on the people in power.
The funny thing about “hate begets more hate” is that the user you’re replying to has a good reason to feel hate, and the racist Americans on the other side of that equation don’t. And yet, between those two groups, whose hate results in millions of people dying through sanctions and warfare?
The problem with the idea of “racism” against Americans, or even hatred against Americans being problematic, is that there’s no power structure behind it that makes it real. You’re essentially policing the tone of victims here and acting like their anger at what was done to them is equivalent to the very real wrongdoing they are reacting to.
Thank you for expressing that so eloquently
Thanks. This type of thing is something I see a lot on the fediverse and it bothers me.
I have seen like two dozen outspoken liberals on this very site refer to Russian people writ large as orcs, and the Russian language as orcish
no one reasonable
It isn’t “fuck the [imperialist/authoritarian nation] government and its enforcers” for most people?
Russia isn’t imperialist. Imperialism isn’t when invasion or when big country is bad
Authoritarian is a useless pejorative as every nation that has been or currently is is “authoritarian”.
How do you define imperialism if invading other countries with the same explicit intent to annex them isn’t it?
Cowbee means economic imperialism - using the resources / wealth of another country for yourself. So invading another country would not, by itself, be imperialism.
I think this definition is a bit reductionist, but it’s a good starting point to ask ‘is this war for profit or some other reason?’.
but it’s a good starting point to ask ‘is this war for profit or some other reason?’.
Always an important question to ask but if Cowbee does mean that, then they should use the modifier to signify that they are talking about economic imperialism and not about Imperialism Imperialism.
I am talking about what most leftists understand to be imperialism, which is why I called it as such, and explained it so there’s no room for doubt. The vauge concept of influence along international lines popular among apologists for imperialism as I describe it isn’t inherently a bad thing, while imperialism as I describe it is, and is the biggest obstacle to socialism globally.
If you want to rename imperialism to something else, and call imperialism “economic imperialism” then we can do that, I’d rather talk about the actual process itself than argue about nomenclature.
That’s a laugh. Putin and his political machine have expressed a desire to return to the days of the Russian Empire and has engaged in acts of conquest to that effect.
Russia is a mirror image of the US. While Anglo-Saxons were pushing west across North America, conquering indigenous peoples, Russians were pushing east out of Europe into Asia conquering indigenous peoples. They’re both dysfunctional countries with dysfunctional world views.
I never claimed that modern Russia is progressive, socialist, or something to be defended. I am a communist; Russia today is a capitalist oligarchy. Russia being imperialist and if I support them are separate questions.
Imperialism is not “when a country invades” or “when a big country has bad politics.” Imperialism refers to a specific stage of capitalism characterized by monopoly capital, finance capital dominance, export of capital, and systemic exploitation of dependent nations. By that definition, Russia today does not function as an imperialist power in the same way the US or the rest of the imperial core does. This is a simple statement of facts, not an endorsement.
Pointing to the Russian Empire’s historical expansion is irrelevant to whether the Russian Federation in the 21st century is imperialist. History alone does not determine a country’s position in the current global capitalist system. By that logic, nearly every existing state would be “imperialist” forever and the term would be rendered useless for meaningful analysis.
Likewise, saying Russia “mirrors” the US ignores material reality. The US sits at the core of global finance, enforces dollar hegemony, maintains hundreds of overseas bases, and systematically dominates entire regions. Russia does not occupy that structural position (even if they may wish to). You can criticize Russian nationalism or militarism without flattening all distinctions or redefining imperialism into a catch all for when big countries do bad things or when invasions.
Imperialism refers to a specific stage of capitalism
Then you’ve redefined the term Imperialism.
No. You just don’t know what the word means.
The term imperialism was coined by
LeninHobson, and it’s definition has remained constant for over a century. It’s actually liberals who have tried to flatten and bastardize it’s definition to hide the inevitable systemic nature of their crimes against humanity. The fact that you were introduced to the wrong definition first doesn’t make it the right one.The word imperialism is derived from the Latin word imperium,[8] which means ‘to command’, ‘to be sovereign’, or ‘to rule’.[9] It was coined in the 19th century to describe Napoleon III’s attempts to gain political support by invasion.[10][11] The term was applied to the British Empire during the 1870s; by the 1880s it had acquired a positive connotation in the West.[12] By the end of the 19th century, the term was used to describe the behavior of empires at all times and places.[13] Hannah Arendt and Joseph Schumpeter defined imperialism as expansion for the sake of expansion.[14]
Hobson, and in 1917, Lenin, attempted to redefine imperialism as the “highest stage of capitalism”, as firms exported capital to dominate economically rather than territorially.[15]
expressed a desire to return to the days of the Russian Empire
Show me. Pull up a shred of evidence for this obvious propaganda. Show me Vladmir Putin expressing the desire to reform the pre-1917 Russian Empire.
Also works for them saying bomb them.
fuck those dirty Russians Ukraine should bomb all the cities
So you want them to hit civilians?
no I meant only places without people but still they need to retaliate
Then why say bomb the cities?
stop twisting my words when I want they’re the evil bad ones
Usually they just say there are no civilians in Russia and Ukraine killing ANY Russian is completely justified. Not the other way around though.
Also parallels their thoughts on Israel vs Palestine. Israel can kill any Palestinian and be “self defense” but when it comes to Israelis suddenly they care about the civilian distinction.
https://lemmy.world/comment/21824437
They don’t even go that far to distinguish the difference from my experience. Just go I didn’t mean that but I’m just gonna blame you for reading the words I used
(paraphrased) Murdering civilians is what Russia does. Why are you suggesting Ukraine do it?
It’s the only thing Russia will understand.
Later: “Noooo, I never said that Ukraine should murder civilians!”
Later: "Noooo, I never said that Ukraine should murder civilians
how dare you put words in my mouth dirty mler. I totally meant they should ignore civilians when saying it was the only thing Russia would understand
Amazing the overlap with the ones saying usa just needs more dems in congress to fix everything
One of my favorite kind of lemmitors on the fediverse is the “how dare you read the things I wrote” kind, where they start backpedaling only after getting massive backlash and then expect people to automatically believe their “clarifications” are sincere.
It must be an election year. Here comes the “both sides” posts
I’m not American I don’t know when their elections are. Liberal doesn’t mean “Democrat” it means someone who believes in the capitalist “free market” policies and opposes alternate economic systems. In the US all parties are Liberal. This meme isn’t even just about Americans, it is more about how westerners in general post on Lemmy about what Russia did in Ukraine versus about what they all did in Iraq.
I’m not American I don’t know when their elections are.
Part of the Yankee political system is that “election cycles” are so long it’s basically always close to one at least. “Election year” describes at least one in every two years.
Leftists have been opposing the US Empire every day for years, election season has nothing to do with it.
Libs can’t imagine any “activism” beyond voting for garbage people.
I was in a conversation w one yesterday where we were talking about how the Epstein illuminati had been in control of American politics for the last few decades using mass 4chan to control maga and also using reddit to control vote-blue-no-matter-who.
We got to the last election and how they’ll probably engineer the next one and he said that he would vote for Kamala Harris again despite knowing that the Epstein illuminati will mass social engineer a choice between someone like Harris and JD Vance because Vance is a fascist and Harris isn’t; as if we instantly forgot the conversation we were having.
Then I became completely stupified when he posited that Americans will react once they discover how Russia was using Epstein to collect the kompromat.
He’s the most political informed person I know and unquestionably more so than the American plebiscite and even he is clearly conditioned to accept the Russia narrative and i think it makes it clear that our cultural conditioning will outlast any impact that the Epstein will have on our society.
Yep, and going to brunch.
Hey now! I enjoyed a very nice brunch this morning, right at home. No mimosas though. And my dining companion needs a full body shave.
Brunch isn’t bad itself!
Revisionism! This is where Deng Xiaoping Thought will lead you. /joke
You know what’s even more fucked up? Europe, Australia and even Ukraine sent troops also to murder Iraqis and Afghans then bragged how they did things for the US
That certainly sounds like Europe, Australia, and Ukraine.
deleted by creator
“fully understands the core of international politics” lol
bit timid. I would have gone for
“intimately fathoms the very essence of international politics”
Upper right is similar to lower left - inconsistent values and inconsistent ideology. Pure hypocrisy. Dogs of US vs Dogs of Russia.
Supporting Palestine makes you a dog of Russia? Sounds like you don’t fully understand the core of international geopolitics
Supporting the liberation of Donetsk and Luhansk from the Banderite government they have been trying to secede from for a decade is a good thing, and that’s why the CPRF supports the Russian nationalists in the war. Had the west not supported a far-right coup back in 2014, it’s likely the war never would have happened.
That’s like an onion, just layers of naive. Russia has had imperial ambitions on Ukraine for a while and thinking that they care at all about the “liberation” of Donetsk and Luhansk is crazy talk.
“Material concerns? Physical reality? Oh ho ho, how charmingly naive, my dear boy. The true core of the matter is actually very simple, you see. Pushes glasses up anime-style Russia…is Just Evil.”
Do you actually believe it’s inconsistent? Because it’s really quite straightforward: The US-centered capitalist empire must be stopped, and it’s genocidal proxies need to be eliminated, for the survival of the human race.
The inconsistent part is giving a free pass to Russia when they do everything the US does just not as extensively.
Russia is not stealing the surplus value and resources of the global south on an immense scale, which is the primary reason why its resistance to the US Empire and its European vassals plays a progressive role because of this.
Russia steals the surplus value for within it’s borders, the US steals surplus value from beyond it’s borders. Like I said, Russia does everything the US does just not as extensively.
Russia is indeed capitalist, correct, not imperialist. Glad we can come to an understanding on why the US Empire is the biggest global obstacle to socialism, and that the Russian Federation’s lack of imperialism makes it worthy of critical support in undermining the US Empire.
Imperialist capitalist oligarchic country must be stopped so I should support another imperialist capitalist oligarchic country. Brilliant logic.
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only one of these countries is imperialist.
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only one of these countries is a waning world hegemon with it’s boot on the neck of the planet and 900 military bases worldwide.
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the other has been forced into a position of fighting and weakening the hegemon, and therefore warrants critical support. This is why Africa, China and and most of the middle east support Russia in this war: every NATO tank and drone destroyed in Ukraine is one less to menace people elsewhere, one less to enforce murderous sanctions and austerity. The logic is very simple if you understand cause, effect and scale.
- Of course, because Belarus, Wagner group in Africa, Caucasus, are all humanitarian efforts
- True, but Spain was still imperialistic despite England being more successful. Success doesn’t excuse actions and ideology.
- Now who doesn’t really understand world politics?
You guys sound like liberals defending the invasion of Iraq.
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What are Wagner doing in Africa? Guarding mines and shit. What was Azov doing in Eastern Uktaine before Russia stopped them? Slaughtering 8,000 people with the blessing of the nazi coup government.
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Spain being imperialist (imperialistic is not a word) doesn’t make, for example, Morocco imperialist. You seem to think I’m saying Russia is a lesser imperial power. You are wrong: Russia is not an imperial power at all.
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You, emphatically
You guys sound like liberals defending the invasion of Iraq.
Oh, the US/NATO military venture designed to sieze control of a country’s resources by manufacturing a conflict with a government headed by a guy we put there in the first place?
Yeah, imagine defending something like that. If this was 2002 your gullible ass would be calling me a Saddam Lover. But of course, now that we’ve already fucked up Iraq, that war can join the list of US crimes that liberals were definitely, totally for realsies always against from the beginning. You people are as craven as you are predictable. Always opposing every war after it’s too late and supporting every war when it actually matters.
In 5 years or so when we get 9/11 2: This Time it’s Ukranian, you’ll say"Everyone knew that starting the Ukraine War was a bad and criminal idea, but this time it’s different! This time we need to support (a puppet government in the Philippines doing ethnic cleansing against Chinese people or something) against big, evil, fascist Gyna, who attacked for no reason! Democracy itself is on the line!" Over and over every few years, never learning, until we’re all dead.
My gullible ass is old enough to actually have been out in the street protesting against US/NATO and the invasion of Iraq back in 2002. You’re defending Putin’s war as if it’s justifiable by Azov or by Euromaidan. And arresting and making Tymoshenko a political prisoner or breaking the Budapest Memorandum is of course all reasonable, right?
Btw, imperialistic: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/imperialistic
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Imperialist capitalist oligarchic country must be stopped so I should support another imperialist capitalist oligarchic country. Brilliant logic.
when hamas does it it’s genocidal intent, when ukraine/israel do it is self-defence.
I really do think that liberals should take a hard look at themselves. They don’t flinch to call Russian soldiers orcs, and ascribe to their foreign policy a mindless bloodthirst. Do they think of US soldiers the same way? Or US foreign policy (even under someone like darling Obama)? Seriously: who is more “evil” Putin or Obama? By what measure?
