Someone tell Kier Stacked not to indulge AI to educating our children
From around the age of 12, Dutch pupils are streamed into one of three secondary tracks, based on teacher recommendations and primary-school test results:
VMBO - the practical route that usually leads to vocational training HAVO - which typically leads to universities of applied sciences VWO - the academic route to research universities
The system is controversial, with critics warning that early streaming can disadvantage some children and be detrimental to a young person’s self-esteem.
And it does. People are convinced they are not smart for life because of some classification when they were at elementary school. I’ve met Dutch people who were acting all impressed that I went to university as if I’m some kind of genius.
Yes the support vocational education gets is great but I don’t see why kids need to be sorted like this at such an early age, especially since in a society that is not free from capitalist privilege family and background will play a big role. An egalitarian system would place all kids in the same stream and offer pathways within it.
So it’s like the premier League in football.
This system seems focused on education as a means for employment rather than education. This kind of focus on the material benefits of education results in a very mercenary view of the world. I think most people would agree that it would be beneficial to live in an educated society where everyone is curious and constantly learning, but this kind of tracking and sorting system seems designed to encourage a mentality where the ends justify the means since your future can be heavily influenced by what track you are placed upon. It would be one thing if students could pick their track and shuffle around as their interests change, but telling a kid, “You must get a math job because you are good at math” removes any agency and motivation for learning. It will turn into, “You must get good at math and get placed on the math track because that’s where all the high paying jobs are.” Education becoming a means to an end instead of the goal of school.
I did MAVO (middle/low education). We didn’t really learn anything there. Anyways, they don’t just let our kind on universities. You need to waste another 4 years to get a diploma elsewhere so you then can go and study for a bachelor’s. Then you’ve reached the maximum number of years you’re allowed to study and financing is over, so no option to study master’s or just anything else.
Actually IRL we are currently experiencing the opposite problem: too many parents (and kids also) browbeating teachers into bumping kids up to VWO who really should not be there and will fail.
Keep in mind that at our highest level of VWO, gymnasium, you have to have many years of both Latin and Greek + two other languages and pre-cal starts at age 13. The other levels are not as over the top language intense, but are the equivalent to an English public school/N American private school.
There are not that many kids prepared for this, and parents pushing them into that education path is a recipe for a very, very unhappy and likely unsuccessful childhood. Plenty hate school so much after this they never bother getting a university degree anyway.
I think the problem is entirely structural. The categories are wrong, they are construed as “levels”, ie, ranks, therefore they are interpreted directly as a social ordering, which causes parents to push for their kids not be classes in “lower” levels. Why not just have education open for everyone and have in the same curriculum options for both Latin and Blacksmithing?
“Hunt in the morning, fish in the afternoon, rear cattle in the evening, and criticize after dinner” and “every cook must learn how to govern the state”.
because somebody needs to do those jobs.
the issue is that we should not stigmatize working-class and vocational work as ‘less than’. because in many cases, it isn’t really less than sitting on your butt in a office 40 hours a week… it’s a lot more difficult.
but it’s not about the job… it’s about social class at the end of the day. it’s about sorting people into their appropriate social class and perpetuating the divide between the lower and upper halves of society, and giving lower half people the vague hope their kids can get into the upper half if they just are smart or hard working enough… which is rarely the case.
egalitarianism sounds nice, but the truth is not everyone can be CEO, in fact, very few people can. the vast majority of work is on lower paying end of the spectrum.
you can have it the other way too… you can have the USA system where people have worthless Masters degrees and work in food service? is that ‘better’? when those folks probably should have been sorted into something more vocational earlier in their lives that would have given them less debt, wasted less time, and made them wealthier in the end. but at least in USA ‘vocational’ work is considered for stupid and dumb people and is very stigmatized esp among the white-collar professional elites.
I don’t think the point of schooling should be to get a job. Children should pursue their interests while recieving an education wide enough to accommodate being trained in whatever field they decide to follow. A lawyer should know a little trigonometry. An engineer should know a little philosophy.
A job is just something you do to pay the bills. I don’t see any problem with a barista who followed their interests and got a degree in Mesopotamian Culture. It’s only a waste of time if you view education solely as a means to employment.
In much of the modern capitalist world, education is seen this way, unfortunately. I agree with you that people today are sorted into social classes based solely on how much money they make. It’s how we end up with Business Idiots; people like Elon Musk who are fucking idiots that don’t know how anything works. But since they are really good at making money, they are seen as paragons of society. The construction worker with a degree in Underwater Basket Weaving contributes more to society than any CEO, yet is seen as stupid and worthy of derision for both having a physical labor job and pursuing their interests.
Here’s an idea: education should not be about jobs, it should be about raising the next generation of citizens to take over being Humanity in this world. Or maybe I’m too Greek and bought too much in this idea of “paideia”.
A bit more practically, I like Quebec’s CÉGEP system. Not everyone ends up to university but almost everyone at least gets a taste.
In the USA the closest thing we have to this are “gifted” labels (whatever that even means) and I still see adults experiencing existential crises over that; and other arguing about the use of said labels. I’m an outsider to that world, but from what I see; The label… doesn’t even have a systemic impact on anything??? and it seems to be a point of major stress and conflict still.
This is all to say labeling kids is always harmful; and making a “sort kids for life” system like in That transphobic writer’s fantasy school is definitely not a good policy for a nation ;-;
There are intelligence tests which would determine if a student has the ability to attend college. This prevents a student who does not have the intelligence to attend college only to drop out after spending money and time.
So encourage children towards what they appear to be good at, rather than pushing them all towards academia and shaming those who don’t choose that path?
Seems like an obvious conclusion to me, but the UK Government rarely cones to the obvious conclusion.
Just don’t look at the numbers for burnout in the Netherlands.
Eh to be fair, part of that is because we can safely take time off to recover. Mostly.
What a load of bullshit. There are opportunities for a select few and the simplest way to reduce the amount of Neets is by simply not counting them.
Just to be clear, what you’re describing is the UK government’s approach?( /serious)
No, the Dutch one :)
