He described the major pro-Israel lobby as an organization “for whom the only thing more frightening than democracy being allowed to run its course is an end to genocide and Netanyahu’s wars.”
Are you not aware there are a number of majority Muslim states in the world? There is only one majority Jewish state and you want it gone, while being suspiciously vague about how you want to accomplish that.
There’s a good case to be made for the Roma to have a state, but their history is being nomadic (so where would that state be?) and there doesn’t seem to be the will within the Roma people to form a state.
Since you’re making silly comparisons with other ethnicities, do you think it’s wrong for indigenous people to claim a cultural connection to the land? If it’s wrong for Jews to feel a connection to the land of their ancestors then it must also be wrong for indigenous people to feel a similar connection to the land of their ancestors? for that matter, do you feel it’s wrong for Palestinians to feel a connection to the land of their ancestors?
Personally I’m pragmatic. Everyone has to live somewhere and people have a right to live where they were born, otherwise you end up with stateless people who will inevitably be oppressed. Like the Roma. More than 80% of the Jews in Israel were born there, so they have the right to live there. I was born on land that was taken from other people in the past, but I have a right to live in my country, because where else would I live?
I hope that many countries would allow in Jewish if we see a repeat of the antisemitc hatred of the past. We are currently headed in that direction. But I do recognize that antisemitc movements in the past and in the present are international movements (oh the irony that the real global schemers are the antisemites). So there’s no guarantee that there will be any country that will give safe harbour to Jews… except for one.
I bring up the Night of the Long Knives to remind you want happens to socialists that become adjacent to fascists. Y’all are so busy congratulating yourselves for seeing some problems with capitalism and discovering antisemitic conspiracy theories for the first time in your lives, you don’t see the pattern you’re following.
The best argument for a Jewish state is to just read what people post on this site.
I have not said Israel shouldn’t exist. I’ve said it shouldn’t be an ethnostate. That’s all. While you’re trying to tar anyone against the idea of an ethnostate as an antisemite, I might point out that the most vociferous advocates for ethnostates in America are white nationalists such as the KKK. So maybe we should keep this converation between you and I rather than slandering each other based on who is standing on our side, because you’ll find you have your own pretty unsavory types standing with you. Including, ironically, ardent antisemites.
You can call yourself pragmatic, but supporting the genocide or apartheid of a people because the people doing the genociding were themselves once genocided seems pretty ideological rather than pragmatic. I don’t think this puts you in a very good position to finger wag others for their views on racism, cowboy.
I think the lesson of the 20th century is very, very clearly that ethnostates only lead to genocide and war. They almost have to by definition… the story of the Balkans and central Africa for the past century has been one of attempting to establish borders based on race and then humanitarian disasters followed as people who didn’t fit into those borders were either forcibly expelled or killed. This can’t really be denied, can it? And aren’t we seeing this exact thing play out in Israel?
Can you explain to me how it is possible to have an ethnostate without engaging in either genocide or apartheid? Because I can’t see how that’s possible.
I think we also need to acknowledge there’s a pretty big difference in a people currently or within a few generations culturally connected to a land, and people who have been displaced for literal centuries. Do we give Britain back to the Gaelic peoples that were displaced by Saxons? They can both claim a cultural connection and have been present the entire time, as with Jews in the area around Israel. How far back do we go?
In any case, no, even in the case of indigenous peoples, I absolutely do not support ethnostates because of the above… they invariably and always lead to genocide and apartheid, which I feel should be avoided at all costs. Do you not?
Are you not aware there are a number of majority Muslim states in the world? There is only one majority Jewish state and you want it gone, while being suspiciously vague about how you want to accomplish that.
There’s a good case to be made for the Roma to have a state, but their history is being nomadic (so where would that state be?) and there doesn’t seem to be the will within the Roma people to form a state.
Since you’re making silly comparisons with other ethnicities, do you think it’s wrong for indigenous people to claim a cultural connection to the land? If it’s wrong for Jews to feel a connection to the land of their ancestors then it must also be wrong for indigenous people to feel a similar connection to the land of their ancestors? for that matter, do you feel it’s wrong for Palestinians to feel a connection to the land of their ancestors?
Personally I’m pragmatic. Everyone has to live somewhere and people have a right to live where they were born, otherwise you end up with stateless people who will inevitably be oppressed. Like the Roma. More than 80% of the Jews in Israel were born there, so they have the right to live there. I was born on land that was taken from other people in the past, but I have a right to live in my country, because where else would I live?
I hope that many countries would allow in Jewish if we see a repeat of the antisemitc hatred of the past. We are currently headed in that direction. But I do recognize that antisemitc movements in the past and in the present are international movements (oh the irony that the real global schemers are the antisemites). So there’s no guarantee that there will be any country that will give safe harbour to Jews… except for one.
I bring up the Night of the Long Knives to remind you want happens to socialists that become adjacent to fascists. Y’all are so busy congratulating yourselves for seeing some problems with capitalism and discovering antisemitic conspiracy theories for the first time in your lives, you don’t see the pattern you’re following.
The best argument for a Jewish state is to just read what people post on this site.
I have not said Israel shouldn’t exist. I’ve said it shouldn’t be an ethnostate. That’s all. While you’re trying to tar anyone against the idea of an ethnostate as an antisemite, I might point out that the most vociferous advocates for ethnostates in America are white nationalists such as the KKK. So maybe we should keep this converation between you and I rather than slandering each other based on who is standing on our side, because you’ll find you have your own pretty unsavory types standing with you. Including, ironically, ardent antisemites.
You can call yourself pragmatic, but supporting the genocide or apartheid of a people because the people doing the genociding were themselves once genocided seems pretty ideological rather than pragmatic. I don’t think this puts you in a very good position to finger wag others for their views on racism, cowboy.
I think the lesson of the 20th century is very, very clearly that ethnostates only lead to genocide and war. They almost have to by definition… the story of the Balkans and central Africa for the past century has been one of attempting to establish borders based on race and then humanitarian disasters followed as people who didn’t fit into those borders were either forcibly expelled or killed. This can’t really be denied, can it? And aren’t we seeing this exact thing play out in Israel?
Can you explain to me how it is possible to have an ethnostate without engaging in either genocide or apartheid? Because I can’t see how that’s possible.
I think we also need to acknowledge there’s a pretty big difference in a people currently or within a few generations culturally connected to a land, and people who have been displaced for literal centuries. Do we give Britain back to the Gaelic peoples that were displaced by Saxons? They can both claim a cultural connection and have been present the entire time, as with Jews in the area around Israel. How far back do we go?
In any case, no, even in the case of indigenous peoples, I absolutely do not support ethnostates because of the above… they invariably and always lead to genocide and apartheid, which I feel should be avoided at all costs. Do you not?