I saw an issue today on a fairly popular project (better-auth, see the link to the issue attached). No repro, no context, just a wall of caps and profanity ending in “fuck you”. The maintainers ship this for free. People run production businesses on top of it, for free. And the thanks is someone raging into a text box because a minor bump cost them an afternoon.
I maintain and contribute to a few projects myself, so this hits a nerve a bit. Something people don’t see from the outside: it’s not enough to know how to build the thing. You also have to know how to defuse a thread where someone’s insulting you and not fire back, even though most of us aren’t paid for any of it, let alone the work of staying civil while being told to get fucked.
I’m not pretending breaking changes don’t cause real pain (that’s what the issue is about). But I keep coming back to a boundary question: if you’re not paying for it, do you actually get to demand anything? (Obviously yes, but we still need some boundaries)
The part that irkes me most about this, is he’s right.
The complaint is valid, non-breaking production changes should be the norm, not the expected, 100%. And yes, I maintain upstream work, too.
Doesn’t forgive them being a dick. Permaban in my book, I just hate that he’s right.
“NOO!! The free thing you’re providing for free that my business is mooching off of changed and I don’t want to learn how to use package managers 😡”
Some people deserve nothing for free, they don’t get the simple idea of what free job for community means, if you are worried about bugs and etc go get payed work. So you have a reason to demmand shit
Let me preface this by saying that you should never, ever be rude to open source maintainers.
But good god, if you are writing software for other programmers, stop making breaking changes. By all means, break your software. Don’t break mine.
If there’s something I learned in the industry is how to test (and I don’t just mean some unit tests) and how to write APIs with back compatibility in mind.
Not saying proprietary software is necessarily better, but working in a big organization that guarantees functionality to its customers, does teach you to coordinate releases better than most solo projects probably will.
I mean, I told a paying customer to get fucked yesterday over demands so you can definitely say it to a non-paying person.
If he was a paying customer of mine i would void the purchase and tell him to go fuck himself
Not so long ago someone here argued with me that open source devs have a lot of responsibilities and if they can’t make their project easy to contribute they should be banned from open source community (no idea what it would look like). They got upvotes too. Nice to see some sanity here again.
When that whole rsync stuff came out, I remember arguing with someone about this too.
Like, I’m not defending AI or the use thereof. I also don’t know the full details of that situation, or how much AI the dev actually used, or for what. That’s not the subject of the argument I was making.
Basically, I was saying that it’s a FOSS project and the guy has been maintaining it more or less by himself for decades at this point, and it’s become a critical infrastructure that an enormous number of projects (both professional and hobbyist) rely on.
I said if these people didn’t like how the guy was maintaining his project (for free, and thanklessly at that), then they could either contribute, fork it, or make their own.
A couple people in that thread were doubling down about how the dev somehow apparently has some sort of responsibility or duty or obligation to run his project the way they think he should. They just didn’t seem to get the fact that he’s doing it for free, it’s his own project, and it’s not his fault that the majority of linux users decided to make it an indispensable part of their backup processes.
But these people said everything from “you can’t just fork a major project like this, that’s an enormous task with xyz responsibilities” (as if that doesn’t strengthen the point that it is an enormous task which this guy is choosing to do for free) to “if so much critical infrastructure depends on it, then it does oblige the developer to maintain it in such-and-such a way.”
In the end, I didn’t get through to them. Not that I expected to, but sometimes arguing with these people is more for the lurkers who will read the chain rather than for the people I’m actually arguing with…
Contribute, fork it, or make their own
Except this is a bit silly. So, for example, rsync does have an alternative already on the market; it’s called openrsync, but I tried to just “s/rsync/openrsync/“ (in a script) and it is not a 1:1 replacement. And it’s not even close.
Contributing requires the project maintainer to not be a dick, but with rsync, people have probably been “oh, he’s been doing so good as they are.”
I might fork rsync (to version freeze) before the AI adds, but it complicates system administration. System administration is easiest using the package management systems. I, personally, believe there are like four Linux versions: pacman, dnf/yum, aptitude, and source.
xz is a bit silly too. Someone maintain it alone and look what almost happened. He got peer pressured to almost hands the project to malicious actor (which probably also by social engineering)
Maybe it’s silly to make your own fork, but unless someone else does it and you opt for their alternative, those are your options.
Complaining about how the dev decides to maintain his own project that he does for free is not one of them.
He’s been maintaining critical infrastructure for decades. Maybe if you make him a billionaire then he’ll have to run his project however you demand, but as long as this is just a passion project of his, it’s no one else’s business. They can submit bug reports, they can contribute PRs, but cussing him out because you don’t like how he manages his own project is just dumb.
Having been on the maintainer side of a popular project once before, I’ve pretty much just taken the mindset of “if you owe them nothing, then they owe you nothing”. Basically, pay them, or stop making demands (though suggestions and bug reports are usually welcome by maintainers).
Incidentally, this is why I didn’t accept donations for that project (though I have nothing against donations in general, of course). I didn’t want to even feel a sense of responsibility to maintain a project I knew I’d eventually burn out from.
I wouldn’t take it as far as paying allows demands. If I decided to pick up some litter in my way in public and some sees it. Just because they shoves a $20 in my face, doesn’t mean they can demand and expect I’ll pick up all the other trash around. There would need to be contract (even just Social) negotiations at the least!
I wouldn’t take it as far as paying allows demands.
Neither would I.
Paying implies exchanging money for something the other party is selling, and would require the other party (the maintainer) to sell it. Shoving $20 in someone’s face is a donation, not a payment.
I just refused donations for myself. I would never claim a donation gives someone any special right to demand something.
Agree we should treat people better but also: for the love of god learn semver. Breaking changes in minor and patches is so sloppy.
But still complainers fault for not pinning, because you cannot trust semver at all. Vicious cycle
All companies I worked for did not care for semver and made the fucking marketing department decide on the version numbers. Makes you never trust it.
Imagine the chaos if all the FOSS maintainers collectively went on strike until their demands were met. They could demand so, so much despite being volunteers.
I’m convinced the world’s top companies are all secretly built on FOSS projects, so might be able to scrape together a few billions from it.
They would sooner enslave the maintainers
if you’re not paying for it, do you actually get to demand anything? (Obviously yes, but we still need some boundaries)
Wrong!! Obviously no. You’re not entitled to demand anything. You can ask politely.
You don’t like the project? Go and use another alternative.
There is no alternative? Go and write your own.
You don’t have the skills? Go and pay somebody with the skills. And if you want the most skilled for the job, probably is the person maintaining that project that you don’t like but still keep using for free.
“Sorry about that. We will issue a full refund.”
Guarantee triple their money back
Naah, I don’t really demand anything if the author breaks something on update. I just asked if the breaking changes are intentional and if there’s a workaround. Failing that, I revert and look for other libraries or roll my own. To me Open Source is always about making something you love without any obligation. Not even to follow semver.
That view of open source only applies for non-profits and hobbyists, releasing code that solves their problems altruistically.
Corporations, startups, and VC’s abuse open source by using it as a means to gain goodwill and trust until they are funded or profitable, then they perform a bait and switch or other parasitic practices; they deserve the hate, and can eat shit and die.
Also, if you’re not gonna follow semver don’t use semver. Just use YYYY-MM-DD or whatever. Quite simple really.
Regarding this project; anyone who chooses to use new (thus untrustworthy) foss libraries in prod without version pinning and thorough integration testing is an idiot.
V1.2.3 is not unique to semver tho. So it could really be anything like linux 7.1.2. To be fair, linux does predate semver by a long time. But the point is that not every software with #.#.# needs to be semver. And I think better-auth, from the issue linked, has stated that they don’t yet follow semver somewhere in their docs.
If the versioning has no meaning, or conflicts with a widely held standard, why not switch to datever? Then we at least know how out of date we are…
I ask the inverse. Why should you demand that every project that uses x.y.z versioning be a semver? A widely held standard only applies if you actually want to follow it in the first place. You know HTTP spec didn’t mention anything about the body in GET requests and so almost every web server just ignores body on GET? Yeah, some software decided to use that. And guess what? That software? It was Elasticsearch. People are free to do whatever they want with their software. If they decided to publish something non standard and you decided to use it, you can ask them nicely to follow standard, or make an adapter for it.
Yeah, choosing to establish the semver social contract and then break it is not great
But they never established a “semver social contract”. You can’t assume that project follows semver just because it has an x.y.z version number; semver is not the only versioning scheme, it’s just a very popular one
Why would you use the syntax of the most widely adopted versioning schema in software engineering, then not follow it?
This isn’t linux; it’s a 2 year old project ffs. That’s just ignorance or incompetence, but poor design decisions are expected from an AI slop project. Unless you can enlighten us on the logic of the chosen schema, you shouldn’t defend them.
Hmm, fair
Why not fire back? It’s not like you can really get fired from an open source project.
Hasn’t hurt Linus either.
I don’t think there’s a particular need to defuse into a productive discussion. Something like that, with no repro or respect - lock and close, with a comment on why/that onproductive and disrespectful/what it could have been.
Tone should always be respectful. Something like this should have been a respectful, open suggestion, explaining the issues no clear semver causes.
If they don’t respond to your needs - you can accept it or leave/fork.
Complains about improper release management.
Apparently not using lockfiles for prod.
This is not a serious developer.
What makes you think it’s a lockfile issue? If they sighted a patch upgrade then updated the lockfiles but then noticed a breaking change, then lockfiles are irrelevant.
If it’s actually like they claim, I understand the frustration. (Not that I know this project in particular or how it gets integrated.) Without clear versioning and/or changelogs/release notes managing upgrades is cumbersome, sometimes impossible.
In some cases I’ve had to ask for clarification in PRs because release notes were not clear, PR was not clear, and resolved ticket was also not clear on the thing or solution.
Apparently they had issues before, so maybe they could have expected “patch may not be patch-only”.
It’s the combination of “breaking changes on minor releases” and “disregard for … production environments”.
Can you stop releasing breaking changes on minor releases? It’s absolutely infuriating that you guys keep doing this over and over again with complete disregard for people downstream using this package in production environments.
By the time you’re deploying to production, you should already have your versions locked in, so semver does not factor into resolving dependencies for production deployments at all.
I can understand it being annoying for development processes. Like, if you have a dependabot-style tool that tests against new releases and submits PRs for them, that can definitely be a waste of time and attention if it fails frequently on patch-level updates.
But in between that “eager testing” step and a production rollout, there needs to be a moment where a human reviews the updates and signs off on updating the lockfile.
And at that moment, reading the changelog, it really doesn’t matter if it says “1.0.1: breaking changes!” or “2.0.0: breaking changes!”, because you need to be looking at the substance of the update.
The only way semver violations burn you in a prod env is if you’re YOLOing new versions out there, either by forgoing a lockfile or by merging lockfile updates without review.
The reasonableness of your assertion kind of comes down to environment. Say NPM where people go nuts with dependencies (and is the subject here). If for instance there is a security issue in a package used by the package in question and you must update the package in question to get the package with the security warning updated, then you must update the package in question, and there is every expectation in the NPM ecosystem that semver is followed.
That said, being rude to the developers is immature and counterproductive, and moving to a different solution if a package repeatedly causes problems would be the sane course of action.
This guy has a public identity and even has some very starred repos. I wonder if he gave so much as a thought regarding his whole company seeing his disgusting attitude.
I was surprised to find out that he actually stuck with his original issue text and defended it later on. I understand being frustrated and all, but an apology about the tone was definitely in order.
this is the Next.JS dev
