Electric cars free people from a finite resource controlled by a few
AI data centres are intended to hook people on a new, artificially created, resource, controlled by a few
Pretty sure electric car batteries rely on finite resources, too. Further, I’m pretty sure all resources are finite, which is why people fight so hard to control those resources for personal gain.
Okay I guess finite, disposable resources, then
You can recycle batteries, you can’t use petrol twice
My point is that a consumer product is in no way “freeing” the average citizen.
Better bus service, high speed trains, and bike paths would be more freeing but carbrained consumers only think solutions come from buying things. You’re just trading one capitalist for another.
Electric cars are liked by billionaires because they don’t want better solutions where they have to rub elbows with commoners. This allows them to always have private transport while reducing quality transport options for regular citizens.
Musk literally used his lie of a hyperloop (another way for billionaires to have privacy at the expense of the public) to kill high speed rail in California. This is the guy who kickstarted EV sales in the US.
I’m all for massive expansion of public transport, and I agree EVs should constitute a pretty small part of the ideal transport mix.
However, the vast majority of negative sentiment around EVs you see in the press is not coming from a place of “let’s do public transport instead”, it’s coming from the oil industry wanting people to stay hooked on their product. EVs categorically free consumers significantly from oil companies
That’s what my point was really: the messaging is different because of that dynamic, a dealer wanting to keep people hooked versus a dealer wanting to hook new customers
My point is that a consumer product is in no way “freeing” the average citizen.
Never washed clothes by hand I guess
Don’t know why you’re downvoted
I downvoted because they’re going off on a tangent. I’m annoyed when people disagree with an improved “ideally we should …”. Yes we know but let’s not let the ideal block us from ever improving
I don’t think he’s blocking anyone. I feel like he’s just saying that there are even better solutions.
Then the problem isn’t the centre but the control.
Creating a slave class for the capital class is always seen as essential to the capital class which owns the majority of the country.
It’s just like we can’t do anything politically because it might “impact or reduce jobs” but if corporations want to do something that will net them profit and reduces jobs by the thousands, it’s literally not even a question, just let them do it.
Corporations don’t have the same rights as people, they clearly have more rights than people.
Interesting to see what Hawai’i is doing combating Citizens United by reducing the powers it grants corporations.
And let’s not just tax billionaires the right amount, let’s tax them so much they leave.
I am 100% on board with hating Data Centres. But for those who don’t know: a unevenly distributed variable load on the grid (EV charging) is a much bigger challenge than a localised somewhat constant load on the grid (Data Centres).
Still: should we build Data Centres with the power use comparable to that of small countries? Fuck no.
EVs are a highly modifyable variable load, as the vast majority personal vehicles sit idle nearly the whole day. When a fraction of those can be directed to charge based on grid needs, it becomes a net-asset for stability.
In Ontario, just the half-assed time-of-use pricing and small numbers of EVs in the fleet are likely contributing to the more more stable load over night. They used to have so much Nuclear surplus they were selling to NYC overnight at negative pricing on a regular basis.
My smart thermostat already has a capability of letting the power company make adjustments as needed to stabilize the grid. Is it really so hard to imagine the same functionality for EV charging?
Sometimes override the thermostat, because my house needs to be comfortable for occupants. But I can plug in my EV when I get home, and it has 12 hours to charge. On a typical day it might need two hours and I have no reason to care as long as it completes by morning
Also, home batteries and battery storage at public chargers can dampen the “shock” that the grid might face since it’ll deliver power from the local storage that will then recharge at a constant rate from the grid
And just so we’re really on the same page, just because something is a challenge doesn’t mean it’s a bad thing or shouldn’t be done.
It’s not like we didn’t have the same problems with balancing the grid when people started installing electric ovens or Aircon or dishwashers or washing machines or pretty much any other heavy appliance you can think of.
In fact, did you know that if you were to install Solar and export production to the grid, that can cause the same problems? A lot of people seem to think that it’s about how much power the grid can produce alone but there’s a reason it’s referred to as a “balance”, too much input causes problems as well. Utilities need to plan energy production in advance to cope with an already variable demand, there are people who’s entire job is predicting spikes and drops on consumption so they can figure out if they need to spin up or shut down entire power plants - both of which are expensive to do and any mistake will mean brownouts or worse, a collapsed grid. This isn’t a new thing, it has been this way for decades.
If anything, EVs and EV chargers can be made a lot smarter than the above to actually help balance the grid.
My electric provider gives me cheap electric and a discount on my bill if I let them decide when the car charges (via controlling the car charger). I just tell them when I need the car to be fully charged by and they handle the scheduling. Do I care if the car charges at 2am instead of 9pm if it’s fully charged by 7am either way? Absolutely not.
Better yet, V2X is starting to become a thing - this enables bi-directional charging for the EV. In other words, the EV itself actually helps balance the grid rather than just be a pure drag on it.
In the modern age, overall grid capacity is only a small part of the problem, what we need is a smarter grid. A smarter grid will cope with spikes in demand without forward planning and being cheaper overall for everyone.
EV charging is also not that big
- A typical level 2 charger is 50a@240v, similar to an electric range that many people have.
- It’s also a single digit percentage increase in a home’s typical use
- a full transition will take two decades - surely we can adjust the grid as needed over two decades
I read an estimate that full electrification, not just EVs, was projected to increase electrical load 1%/year …… I don’t remember the data center equivalent but it was several times that
Yes BUT if everyone changed today the grid would break. So we can’t change!
/s
Not to mention, I feel like this argument is based on everyone switching to EVs overnight. This could never happen unless someone has a magic lamp with genie, but I would hope the genie would address the power grid issues as part of the wish. Now a monkey’s paw, on the other hand…
I mean it literally can’t handle data centers either. That’s why they’re running gas turbines and restarting nuclear reactors.
The advantage is it’s a few spots instead of the whole country
Just wait until they cut off households during the heat of summer because they need more power to cool the AI silicon…
To be fair, AI data center hate seems to be pretty bipartisan.
I suspect that the only people supporting them are simply on the take.
To be fair, AI data center hate seems to be pretty bipartisan.
Yet so is support for it from politicians.
I suspect that the only people supporting them are simply on the take
Bingo.
Same with Ukraine support: Putin’s bullshit machine convinced idiots and their reps and now we’re half against Ukraine.
It’s the out of control growth, instant need, exempting themselves from pollution and noise controls, lack of respect for existing resources …… it’s the way and the speed datacenters for LLMs are being pushed.
Datacenters are an important part of modern society but they are also high impact on the local economy so need to be planned accordingly.
Any politician who can’t, can be replaced by one who can. That door swings both ways.
