My opinion also, but in a slightly darker radical tone that I never share otherwise: bringing someone into this world of suffering is a misguided act of unconscious selfishness and whoever does so owes all available effort to reduce that suffering. In practice, no one is able to acquit themselves of this debt, which is why I hope I never have kids…
I think it’s exactly that, although that’s a name I’ve only learned of recently… Sorry about the weirding out. I can understand how it sounds when it’s not a conclusion you’ve reached on your own already.
That’s a very nihilistic view that implies existence is not worth anything. Personally, I believe that existing is actually beautiful and worth experiencing, even if it sucks sometimes and has inherit suffering. Otherwise we might as well all lie down, stop eating or drinking, and wait for death. Kids don’t see the world as suffering and pain — they enjoy every moment with unjaded, curious eyes.
In this context, where we’re talking about having children, would you do it better? You wouldn’t let your kids suffer the same way you did, right? That’s called generational healing.
Yeah, I adopted a couple of younger trans people with bad parents. I’m helping then develop life skills and build resilience and look the way they want to look.
@Zarobi sure, because they are already here. If you could prevent that, wouldnt you? Seems cruel to allow that. Similarly if i had a debilitating hereditary condition why the hell would I pass it on?
The thing is, you can’t predetermine if they’ll have cancer or some other rare conditions before existing. There’s very good screening tests nowadays to help prevent that as well. To me, it seems like a strange morality for that to be your reason to avoid having children. It’s anticipatory grief, like not making friends because they might die. By the same logic, what if your child is the one that discovers the cure to cancer? In that case, it’s cruel not to have them, but you can’t know, so it’s a moot point. Unless you do know, in which case send me a DM, I’m in need of a mystic.
Hereditary conditions are a whole different conversation.
I have no idea where you get the idea that having kids is selfish. I spend so much of my time, attention, money and love on them. We share their pain, success and all their ups and downs. My wife gave up her career as an architect to spend more time with them.
We take care of them now, and they will take care of us later. That’s not selfish, it’s human. And this might be news for you, but this world was always a rough place to be if you’re not born rich.
And if you’re hinting that your kid’s CO2 footprint and consumption potentially contribute to climate change, you’re also forfeiting their chance to contribute to positive changes.
I think it’s more that the act itself, of having the child, is a choice that is made without the consent of the life being brought into the world. Every child is forced into existence through decisions that are not their own.
Of course, it’s impossible to get consent from the violated party, but it’s still a decision parents take for their own reasons, not the child’s reasons.
The kid didn’t need to exist, you made them do so because you wanted something from them for you or those around you, things like love, something to care about, a helping hand etc.
That is selfish by definition.
We take care of them now, and they will take care of us later. That’s not selfish, it’s human.
That is selfish AND human. Although something being human isn’t very relevant, considering things like greed or ill will are also human.
Wanting future generations to fix climate change is also pretty selfish, so it’s a bad example. They’re also likely to be powerless just like us.
Of course, not having kids in order to not make them suffer is also selfish, but It causes the least ammount of pain, well, except for the part where you will have to take care of yourself when older, but thats our problem.
You’re the meme.
Did they asked to be there? Yes you’re “giving” them a lot of your energy, but they are owed that. That’s not generosity, that’s responsibility.
Having kids is inherently selfish. Prove me wrong! Name a single reason to have them that doesn’t involve you.
By that logic taking care of a pet or senile relatives is also selfish. Or working as a missionary, or emergency worker. It boils down to the question if being selfless is in itself a selfish decision.
Were we just stupid? Naive? Following our biological program? I don’t know. But I know that I love my children above all else and would throw myself under a bus to save them.
I guess it can be hard to imagine loving someone without expecting anything in return, if you haven’t received that kind of love yourself.
Amusement? Give me a effing break! Quick, call up your parents and ask them how amused they were wiping your ass and cleaning after you! How funny it was taking care of you when you were sick and keeping them up at night. And then tell them how selfish it was of them.
I got one child, bringing her into this world was definitely a selfish act, we talked about it, weighted the state of the world and everything going on, we came slightly positive, since then the moron in charge if the usa has murdered so much more people, statistically and absolutely, made the world worse for everyone, my own government are the most stupist selfish people i can imagine and yet we wanted someone to give knowledge and things, and yet i fear that she will hate me for being in this world once she realise how fucked up everything is. Creating her was selfish, no doubt
If you truly believe what you say, don’t just hope you don’t have kids. Either get fixed or don’t have sex.
And I already put my money where my mouth is, I got fixed to ensure I will never get pregnant.
Edit: Sorry if I come off rude in a comment like this. As the daughter of a man who didn’t want his kids and blamed my mom for getting pregnant, I get really frustrated when I see guys “hope” they don’t have kids or when guys whine about taking care of the kids they didn’t want. Don’t want kids? Get fixed or don’t have sex.
The dude I replied to understood that and started the process. It’s sexy when guys take control of their fertility like that. More men should be like this guy.
You’re totally right. I really should, and I will.
EDIT: I actually started scheduling a vasectomy right now. I had wanted to do one before but things were a little more complicated then and it had slipped my mind in the meantime / did not seem as relevant. Now is a perfect time however.
Honestly dude, good for you! And I promise I’m not being facetious here. I’m super happy you got motivated to get a vasectomy. I had my fallopian tubes removed a few years ago and it was a massive weight lifted off my shoulders to know I will never again be pregnant.
I’m really fucking proud of you for taking that step!
@NoSpotOfGround yeah simply put youre totally right. Sure, there’s good in this world (if youre rich) but lets face it, life is mostly bad and we would all rather be having an eternal slumber instead. We are just here making the most of it because we have to. Say this in public IRL and youll be utterly crucified though. To me its just logic. If you have a kid either by accident or choice, I dont care. But dont make me feel like its required.
I agree with you. I often challenge people to give one selfless reason to have a child, just one… to this day, no one has been able to give one reason. When you look at it, having a child is a selfish action
There are plenty of reasons that aren’t selfish. You can do it for humanity, for justice, for style points, for Narnia… If you want to logick those into being selfish, that’s your own moral framework talking. Every action is a subjective choice from a subjective perspective in the end, but people can still have non-selfish intentions, however misguided you may judge them.
For humanity? We are over 8 billion people in this world, you think humanity needs another one to share resources ? Let me guess your’s will be special of course, better than all the rest. For justice ? I don’t even understand your logic here. It’s not subjective it’s just selfish, you are not having a kid for the good of others, you having one because you want one, consequences be damn
I think you’re missing the point. Having a child for Narnia is not selfish, it is literally for the good of Narnia to have another strong Narnian. But you’re operating under a moral framework where even the good of Narnia is ultimately good for the Narnian, therefore it is selfish to want Narnia to be strong.
Do you have to agree with the idea of a strong Narnia? Of course not. But it’s a very narrow way of thinking to explain every human motivation through selfishness.
God bless your heart if you are this naive 🦄🌈. In the real world pleasure is the exception, pain and death are a warranty in this world. I’m sure you can warranty you’r Kid will be 100% healthy, live a life free of trouble and pain 🫅🏻
@thepig in my experience these folks think everyone is either rich or has zero disabilities of any kind when thats actually about .00000001% of humans. Or theyre really young and have no idea how much life sucks (but make the best of it anyway if youre here)
@BlueOysterCultist I mean, mine wasnt great (childhood abuse) but I make the most of it myself. Theres definitely fun to be had. I just see zero reason to drag an unconsenting person into the world. Like, why? If people were actually not selfish, they’d adopt. I am selfish and I enjoy my alone time, so I will probably end up doing neither.
I don’t think it’s a problem to be selfish, if you can provide for the kid (both emotionally and materially).
Also the foster/adopt system is exceedingly slow (months to years for placement) and the older children are likely to have serious issues. Personally I’d be fine with fostering to adopt but I don’t want to risk bringing a behavioral nightmare of a teen into my house.
For new life, assuming the emotional + material needs are met, existence is definitely worth it over nothingness. Global warming and all these authoritarian politicians are definitely making for a shitty looking future for new life though.
True. I am not religious or even spiritual, but I gotta admit that the budists got it right when they say “suffering is a fundamental constant in life”. Thinking everything will be sunshine and rainbows is not optimism, it’s just being naive.
@thepig agree. I’d say in general, my life has maybe been 15-20% enjoyment, the rest was either meh or outright sucked. The enjoyment portion gets smaller as one gets older, especially if you aren’t raking in cash by the time youre 40, you won’t have a fun time.
Might not be selfless as such, and I’m not in any position to speak for women in general, but when that biological drive kicks in, it can do so pretty damn hard.
That’s still satisfying your own need, but perhaps more subconsciously so than people having children without thought or care.
Me and my wife agreed on not having children when we were young, but we’ve never regretted the son we got after a pretty radical twist in our mid 20’s. I could go on, but it’s complicated.
In today’s world, if I were young again, I’d never even give it serious thought, though. Different times, although it doesn’t feel that long ago.
My intention is not to shame or make people who have children feel bad. I am 35 and I would never have a kid, we are over 8 billion people in this world that’s over the maximum sustainable capacity, why on earth would I bring another human into this world, there is nothing inherent special about my DNA that I MUST pass down.
In all honesty, lots of people have children not even because they especially want to, but because they feel obligated to by their role in society. That’s not a reason many people are likely to give, but it’s not a selfish reason.
It is selfish, you have a kid because you don’t want to handle other people’s opinions about you, giving in to the pressure is easier that standing your ground, more comfortable to. So because you don’t want to argue with your parents and deal with the backlash, you decide to bring another human being into existence. That’s pretty selfish
Indeed, I do not want to shame people who decide to have a bunch of kids if they truly want to, but they should really think about their choices and the consequences, because at the end of the day, those people that pressured you into having a kid will not help you if things go wrong, I’m talking about mental and physical illness, I am talking about financial destitution, I’m talking about accidents, and 1001 other things that can happen
@thepig everyone wants people to have kids, no one wants to pay or take the time for them. If you dont have immediate family nearby, have fun with $2k/month daycare bills on $9/hr minimum wage! Its a joke.
Truly, and then the kid is going to suffer from lack of opportunities and even resources, but it’s somehow ok cause they wanted a kid 🤷🏻 and we should all sUpPoRt ThAt.
@thepig maybe some people cannot control their biological desires. Obviously its normal to want a kid because biology demands it. I however feel 0 desire for it.
Meeting your obligations is the most unselfish thing you can possibly do. Doing things out of obligation to others is the fundamental unit of unselfishness.
Not really, standing up to what you know is right, even when it gets you criticism, that is not selfish. Doing things cause people tell you to do and you don’t want to bother going against the flow cause it’s uncomfortable is pretty selfish. What obligation ? Our planet is over 8 billion people, do you think the human race is going extinct? It might very well go extinct if people keep pumping up children like there is no tomorrow, consequences and lack of resources be damn, I want a kid.
They care about an ethereal being that has not yet even started to exist ? Cause before they conceive the child, the child doesn’t exist, so surely they must not care about something that doesn’t exist. They care about THEMSELVES and their desire to have a kid, or did they ask the future kid’s soul if it want to come into existence?
They care about an ethereal being that has not yet even started to exist ?
Couldn’t they care about something before it comes into existence?
so surely they must not care about something that doesn’t exist
I don’t understand how you arrive at this outcome that you cannot care about something that doesn’t exist. Lower stakes example: gamers cared about GTA 6 before it came out. People care about future entries into game series that haven’t even been thought up yet.
People care about the concept of things that don’t exist enough to make them want to exist.
did they ask the future kid’s soul if it want to come into existence?
If you believe in souls, and believe they exist before birth, then I’m curious about why you think it would be selfish to bring souls to experience the mortal plane of existence. Would it not be a function of a soul to be brought here?
Cause before they conceive the child, the child doesn’t exist
According to this thought experiment, their soul exists but they don’t? They meaning their physical body? I guess that makes sense.
But still: people can care about things that don’t exist yet.
Just in case it isn’t clear: none of the above is said with any animosity, and I’m not talking down to you.
Ok I’ll explain better. First I don’t believe in souls, it was a way to express existence, my rationale is that you cannot say you did something for someone who doesn’t exist. So when people say, “I decided to have a son out of love for him” this cannot be, you might want to have a son, like gamer want to have GTA6, but the developers will not say “we decide to create GTA6 because we love GTA6” that wouldn’t make sense. I support freedom for all, if they wish to have 1001 kids they can do so, but let’s not be naive, people do it for many reasons but in my opinion none of those reasons are selfless. Also I happen to adhere to Benatar’s Asymmetry Argument. It states:
-Pain is bad. Pleasure is good.
-But absent pain is good — even if no one’s there to enjoy that absence.
-Absent pleasure isn’t bad — unless someone exists to miss it.
So:
Existing = you get pain (bad) + pleasure (good).
Never existing = no pain (good) + no missed pleasure (neutral, since no one’s deprived).
Conclusion: non-existence never loses. Existence risks suffering for no matching benefit. So it’s better never to be born.
My wife and I have a family to give you a justification to not have children. So, I’m glad I could make you feel better about your choice. That was pretty selfless of us I think.
But an overwhelming desire to protect your children from suffering will ultimately just lead to them suffering more.
Anyway, the word for that feeling you have is “anti-natalism”–that it is unethical to bring children into the world because non-existence is preferable to likely misery.
Existing is more pleasurable than not existing, and you can always choose to stop existing if you want. On balance, it is better to be born than not to be.
My opinion also, but in a slightly darker radical tone that I never share otherwise: bringing someone into this world of suffering is a misguided act of unconscious selfishness and whoever does so owes all available effort to reduce that suffering. In practice, no one is able to acquit themselves of this debt, which is why I hope I never have kids…
that just sounds like anti-natalism and those people kinda weird me out
I think it’s exactly that, although that’s a name I’ve only learned of recently… Sorry about the weirding out. I can understand how it sounds when it’s not a conclusion you’ve reached on your own already.
That’s a very nihilistic view that implies existence is not worth anything. Personally, I believe that existing is actually beautiful and worth experiencing, even if it sucks sometimes and has inherit suffering. Otherwise we might as well all lie down, stop eating or drinking, and wait for death. Kids don’t see the world as suffering and pain — they enjoy every moment with unjaded, curious eyes.
Well, you know, ideally
I believe you would be able to manage it
I’d like to think so, but idk. I mean I’m not an anti-natalist myself, but I also hated my time as a kid so I get where they’re coming from.
Nah, this is fake news. I hated being a kid and was passively suicidal. Once I was an adult, I got to trans My gender and be happy.
In this context, where we’re talking about having children, would you do it better? You wouldn’t let your kids suffer the same way you did, right? That’s called generational healing.
Yeah, I adopted a couple of younger trans people with bad parents. I’m helping then develop life skills and build resilience and look the way they want to look.
Existence is worth it if you already exist, if you don’t, you won’t miss it.
@Zarobi not kids with cancer.
Even people with cancer deserve to exist
@Zarobi sure, because they are already here. If you could prevent that, wouldnt you? Seems cruel to allow that. Similarly if i had a debilitating hereditary condition why the hell would I pass it on?
The thing is, you can’t predetermine if they’ll have cancer or some other rare conditions before existing. There’s very good screening tests nowadays to help prevent that as well. To me, it seems like a strange morality for that to be your reason to avoid having children. It’s anticipatory grief, like not making friends because they might die. By the same logic, what if your child is the one that discovers the cure to cancer? In that case, it’s cruel not to have them, but you can’t know, so it’s a moot point. Unless you do know, in which case send me a DM, I’m in need of a mystic.
Hereditary conditions are a whole different conversation.
Having your own kids is literally the most selfish thing you can do. You want to spread your genes.
Now before you dogpile, understand this doesn’t imply its morally wrong, or bad, or anything of they sort. But it is selfish.
I have no idea where you get the idea that having kids is selfish. I spend so much of my time, attention, money and love on them. We share their pain, success and all their ups and downs. My wife gave up her career as an architect to spend more time with them.
We take care of them now, and they will take care of us later. That’s not selfish, it’s human. And this might be news for you, but this world was always a rough place to be if you’re not born rich.
And if you’re hinting that your kid’s CO2 footprint and consumption potentially contribute to climate change, you’re also forfeiting their chance to contribute to positive changes.
I think it’s more that the act itself, of having the child, is a choice that is made without the consent of the life being brought into the world. Every child is forced into existence through decisions that are not their own.
Of course, it’s impossible to get consent from the violated party, but it’s still a decision parents take for their own reasons, not the child’s reasons.
The kid didn’t need to exist, you made them do so because you wanted something from them for you or those around you, things like love, something to care about, a helping hand etc. That is selfish by definition.
That is selfish AND human. Although something being human isn’t very relevant, considering things like greed or ill will are also human.
Wanting future generations to fix climate change is also pretty selfish, so it’s a bad example. They’re also likely to be powerless just like us.
Of course, not having kids in order to not make them suffer is also selfish, but It causes the least ammount of pain, well, except for the part where you will have to take care of yourself when older, but thats our problem.
There are indeed misanthropes, but they’re also a very small minority.
You’re the meme. Did they asked to be there? Yes you’re “giving” them a lot of your energy, but they are owed that. That’s not generosity, that’s responsibility.
Having kids is inherently selfish. Prove me wrong! Name a single reason to have them that doesn’t involve you.
By that logic taking care of a pet or senile relatives is also selfish. Or working as a missionary, or emergency worker. It boils down to the question if being selfless is in itself a selfish decision.
Were we just stupid? Naive? Following our biological program? I don’t know. But I know that I love my children above all else and would throw myself under a bus to save them.
I guess it can be hard to imagine loving someone without expecting anything in return, if you haven’t received that kind of love yourself.
The big difference here is that these individual already exist. You’re not creating a life for your own amusement.
Amusement? Give me a effing break! Quick, call up your parents and ask them how amused they were wiping your ass and cleaning after you! How funny it was taking care of you when you were sick and keeping them up at night. And then tell them how selfish it was of them.
Just as well you don’t want kids, seriously.
I got one child, bringing her into this world was definitely a selfish act, we talked about it, weighted the state of the world and everything going on, we came slightly positive, since then the moron in charge if the usa has murdered so much more people, statistically and absolutely, made the world worse for everyone, my own government are the most stupist selfish people i can imagine and yet we wanted someone to give knowledge and things, and yet i fear that she will hate me for being in this world once she realise how fucked up everything is. Creating her was selfish, no doubt
You’ve yet to name a single non-selfish reason. I can see this makes you emotive. You should reflect on that before you reproduce.
If you truly believe what you say, don’t just hope you don’t have kids. Either get fixed or don’t have sex.
And I already put my money where my mouth is, I got fixed to ensure I will never get pregnant.
Edit: Sorry if I come off rude in a comment like this. As the daughter of a man who didn’t want his kids and blamed my mom for getting pregnant, I get really frustrated when I see guys “hope” they don’t have kids or when guys whine about taking care of the kids they didn’t want. Don’t want kids? Get fixed or don’t have sex.
The dude I replied to understood that and started the process. It’s sexy when guys take control of their fertility like that. More men should be like this guy.
You’re totally right. I really should, and I will.
EDIT: I actually started scheduling a vasectomy right now. I had wanted to do one before but things were a little more complicated then and it had slipped my mind in the meantime / did not seem as relevant. Now is a perfect time however.
Thank you for getting me moving again.
Honestly dude, good for you! And I promise I’m not being facetious here. I’m super happy you got motivated to get a vasectomy. I had my fallopian tubes removed a few years ago and it was a massive weight lifted off my shoulders to know I will never again be pregnant.
I’m really fucking proud of you for taking that step!
The more selfish you are, the harder it is to be a good parent.
That being said, not everyone should have children, and: “I was a perfect parent too before I had kids.”
@NoSpotOfGround yeah simply put youre totally right. Sure, there’s good in this world (if youre rich) but lets face it, life is mostly bad and we would all rather be having an eternal slumber instead. We are just here making the most of it because we have to. Say this in public IRL and youll be utterly crucified though. To me its just logic. If you have a kid either by accident or choice, I dont care. But dont make me feel like its required.
I agree with you. I often challenge people to give one selfless reason to have a child, just one… to this day, no one has been able to give one reason. When you look at it, having a child is a selfish action
There are plenty of reasons that aren’t selfish. You can do it for humanity, for justice, for style points, for Narnia… If you want to logick those into being selfish, that’s your own moral framework talking. Every action is a subjective choice from a subjective perspective in the end, but people can still have non-selfish intentions, however misguided you may judge them.
Well said.
For humanity? We are over 8 billion people in this world, you think humanity needs another one to share resources ? Let me guess your’s will be special of course, better than all the rest. For justice ? I don’t even understand your logic here. It’s not subjective it’s just selfish, you are not having a kid for the good of others, you having one because you want one, consequences be damn
I think you’re missing the point. Having a child for Narnia is not selfish, it is literally for the good of Narnia to have another strong Narnian. But you’re operating under a moral framework where even the good of Narnia is ultimately good for the Narnian, therefore it is selfish to want Narnia to be strong.
Do you have to agree with the idea of a strong Narnia? Of course not. But it’s a very narrow way of thinking to explain every human motivation through selfishness.
Ura Narnia!
To give someone a chance to experience the pleasure of living.
To contribute to the world an additional person of quality and integrity.
You probably just haven’t been asking very thoughtful or articulate people.
God bless your heart if you are this naive 🦄🌈. In the real world pleasure is the exception, pain and death are a warranty in this world. I’m sure you can warranty you’r Kid will be 100% healthy, live a life free of trouble and pain 🫅🏻
@thepig in my experience these folks think everyone is either rich or has zero disabilities of any kind when thats actually about .00000001% of humans. Or theyre really young and have no idea how much life sucks (but make the best of it anyway if youre here)
Yall got some dismal life experiences; what a dour outlook on life.
@BlueOysterCultist I mean, mine wasnt great (childhood abuse) but I make the most of it myself. Theres definitely fun to be had. I just see zero reason to drag an unconsenting person into the world. Like, why? If people were actually not selfish, they’d adopt. I am selfish and I enjoy my alone time, so I will probably end up doing neither.
I don’t think it’s a problem to be selfish, if you can provide for the kid (both emotionally and materially).
Also the foster/adopt system is exceedingly slow (months to years for placement) and the older children are likely to have serious issues. Personally I’d be fine with fostering to adopt but I don’t want to risk bringing a behavioral nightmare of a teen into my house.
For new life, assuming the emotional + material needs are met, existence is definitely worth it over nothingness. Global warming and all these authoritarian politicians are definitely making for a shitty looking future for new life though.
True. I am not religious or even spiritual, but I gotta admit that the budists got it right when they say “suffering is a fundamental constant in life”. Thinking everything will be sunshine and rainbows is not optimism, it’s just being naive.
@thepig agree. I’d say in general, my life has maybe been 15-20% enjoyment, the rest was either meh or outright sucked. The enjoyment portion gets smaller as one gets older, especially if you aren’t raking in cash by the time youre 40, you won’t have a fun time.
Might not be selfless as such, and I’m not in any position to speak for women in general, but when that biological drive kicks in, it can do so pretty damn hard.
That’s still satisfying your own need, but perhaps more subconsciously so than people having children without thought or care.
Me and my wife agreed on not having children when we were young, but we’ve never regretted the son we got after a pretty radical twist in our mid 20’s. I could go on, but it’s complicated.
In today’s world, if I were young again, I’d never even give it serious thought, though. Different times, although it doesn’t feel that long ago.
My intention is not to shame or make people who have children feel bad. I am 35 and I would never have a kid, we are over 8 billion people in this world that’s over the maximum sustainable capacity, why on earth would I bring another human into this world, there is nothing inherent special about my DNA that I MUST pass down.
In all honesty, lots of people have children not even because they especially want to, but because they feel obligated to by their role in society. That’s not a reason many people are likely to give, but it’s not a selfish reason.
It is selfish, you have a kid because you don’t want to handle other people’s opinions about you, giving in to the pressure is easier that standing your ground, more comfortable to. So because you don’t want to argue with your parents and deal with the backlash, you decide to bring another human being into existence. That’s pretty selfish
@thepig oh man, sooooo many people fit this mold. “Because I have to. Because its what you do”. No. Its not. You dont have to do ANYTHING.
Indeed, I do not want to shame people who decide to have a bunch of kids if they truly want to, but they should really think about their choices and the consequences, because at the end of the day, those people that pressured you into having a kid will not help you if things go wrong, I’m talking about mental and physical illness, I am talking about financial destitution, I’m talking about accidents, and 1001 other things that can happen
@thepig everyone wants people to have kids, no one wants to pay or take the time for them. If you dont have immediate family nearby, have fun with $2k/month daycare bills on $9/hr minimum wage! Its a joke.
Truly, and then the kid is going to suffer from lack of opportunities and even resources, but it’s somehow ok cause they wanted a kid 🤷🏻 and we should all sUpPoRt ThAt.
@thepig maybe some people cannot control their biological desires. Obviously its normal to want a kid because biology demands it. I however feel 0 desire for it.
Meeting your obligations is the most unselfish thing you can possibly do. Doing things out of obligation to others is the fundamental unit of unselfishness.
Not really, standing up to what you know is right, even when it gets you criticism, that is not selfish. Doing things cause people tell you to do and you don’t want to bother going against the flow cause it’s uncomfortable is pretty selfish. What obligation ? Our planet is over 8 billion people, do you think the human race is going extinct? It might very well go extinct if people keep pumping up children like there is no tomorrow, consequences and lack of resources be damn, I want a kid.
Are all selfish actions bad?
I don’t care, I just want people to be honest about it and stop pretending they do it because they care
Perhaps they do it because they care. How would you know what rationale everyone has?
They care about an ethereal being that has not yet even started to exist ? Cause before they conceive the child, the child doesn’t exist, so surely they must not care about something that doesn’t exist. They care about THEMSELVES and their desire to have a kid, or did they ask the future kid’s soul if it want to come into existence?
Couldn’t they care about something before it comes into existence?
I don’t understand how you arrive at this outcome that you cannot care about something that doesn’t exist. Lower stakes example: gamers cared about GTA 6 before it came out. People care about future entries into game series that haven’t even been thought up yet.
People care about the concept of things that don’t exist enough to make them want to exist.
If you believe in souls, and believe they exist before birth, then I’m curious about why you think it would be selfish to bring souls to experience the mortal plane of existence. Would it not be a function of a soul to be brought here?
According to this thought experiment, their soul exists but they don’t? They meaning their physical body? I guess that makes sense.
But still: people can care about things that don’t exist yet.
Just in case it isn’t clear: none of the above is said with any animosity, and I’m not talking down to you.
Ok I’ll explain better. First I don’t believe in souls, it was a way to express existence, my rationale is that you cannot say you did something for someone who doesn’t exist. So when people say, “I decided to have a son out of love for him” this cannot be, you might want to have a son, like gamer want to have GTA6, but the developers will not say “we decide to create GTA6 because we love GTA6” that wouldn’t make sense. I support freedom for all, if they wish to have 1001 kids they can do so, but let’s not be naive, people do it for many reasons but in my opinion none of those reasons are selfless. Also I happen to adhere to Benatar’s Asymmetry Argument. It states: -Pain is bad. Pleasure is good. -But absent pain is good — even if no one’s there to enjoy that absence. -Absent pleasure isn’t bad — unless someone exists to miss it. So: Existing = you get pain (bad) + pleasure (good). Never existing = no pain (good) + no missed pleasure (neutral, since no one’s deprived). Conclusion: non-existence never loses. Existence risks suffering for no matching benefit. So it’s better never to be born.
My wife and I have a family to give you a justification to not have children. So, I’m glad I could make you feel better about your choice. That was pretty selfless of us I think.
Don’t flatter yourself, the 1.44 billion people in India and 1.41 billion in China, plus our dwindling world resources did that
But an overwhelming desire to protect your children from suffering will ultimately just lead to them suffering more.
Anyway, the word for that feeling you have is “anti-natalism”–that it is unethical to bring children into the world because non-existence is preferable to likely misery.
Not all parents are like what you think.
Existing is more pleasurable than not existing, and you can always choose to stop existing if you want. On balance, it is better to be born than not to be.