Yes! They are responsible. They’re not quoting, they are hallucinating crap they think someone else wrote somewhere.
Can we apply the same logic and principle to self driving cars now please and hold the owners of the proprietary software fully and properly responsible for every poor judgement, traffic violation, accident injury and death that happens in self drive mode.
Excellent. Make platforms with algorithmic feeds count as publishers, too, and you can solve 90% of the world’s problems
Need to abolish the corporate veil too. Those parasitic fucks can buy liability insurance.
All the arguments of “AI doesn’t impact copyright because it creates derivative content” were bound to lead here. You can’t (or at least shouldn’t be able to) have it both ways.
I was thinking the same thing.
An AI output is EITHER an original work (either as a wholly original work or as a derivative of another work), or it’s not (and is thus a republication of an existing work).
If it’s a republication, then Google owes a ton of copyright fees and the original publisher of whatever bit of training data got regurgitated is liable. If it’s an original / derivative work, then Google owes nobody anything, but is responsible for whatever the AI outputs.
For example if I write somewhere ‘It’s 100% safe to mix ammonia and chlorine, it gets stains out super fast!’ (note- DON’T do this, it’s toxic), I’m the author of that statement so if someone does that and dies I’ve got partial responsibility for that death.
Same thing with Google.
But your honor I really wanna
If you add in “and here’s your check, sir” at the end this method actually works in the USA.
It’s all
moneychecks and balan… Ahh
While this is a solid ruling and establishes great precedent, it’s in Germany and so likely will only eventually apply to the EU. It would be cool to see a similar decision from a US court.
If Google wants to stick with its AI push, I can’t imagine they would want to keep training 2 different models; especially if one of them could land them in more hot water down the road. While it would eventually apply to the EU, I can imagine the rollout would be global. Similar to how Apple was forced by the EU to ditch their proprietary connector for USB-C: instead of having an EU & North American model; they just adapted USB-C across all their devices
They’ll make them click on a liability agreement every time they try to use it.
That doesn’t fly everywhere in Europe
This is more important that just AI overviews and establishes that companies are responsible for the editorializing they do. That’s much more important in algorithmic suggestions, which drive people into doing things they never would have done otherwise (see: Trump voters).
I hope this stands through all instances and is applied generously, because so many people have been fucked up beyond recognition by following the trail of the algorithm, especially on social and video sites.
Iv always compared it to a library vs news station.
A library collects and helps distribute information. But none of it is their own. While a news station driectly reports on and creates the information that is later catalogued.
Its why in theory a reporter and new source should be held to a very high standard, while a library could in theory be full of bad, false, or other wise misleading information.
A library can’t actually do anything about it realistically on a grand scale. Sure they can ban or bar repeated known offenders. But it’s a cat and mouse game. Same as a search engine. They can stop indexing people who are problems, but they have no real way to know ahead of time till it becomes a problem.
Ai on the other hand is reporting and generating direct sources by its own actions. Its no longer just indexing.
Nor should the library do something! They’re in the job of archiving. The news people, that’s reporting, and it better be done accurately and conscientiously.
Oh woe, we just wanted to give y’all some cool and useful feature!
Just think of it, why would a greedy corporation want to give you a computation-heavy feature for free, for all your everyday searching purposes? One that would be easy to withdraw instead of fighting in courts over it.
Especially if that corporation has full control over specific results served to you on your query
A regular search engine just points to outside websites. But AI overviews generate “independent, new, and substantive statements” by evaluating and combining content from various third-party sites. And only Google can check those statements, the court said, “at least by comparing the underlying third-party websites with its own statements based on them.”
Honestly this is all the reasoning you need to infer that Google should be liable. Google alone has editorial control over the summary their AI generates, not the outside sources used to generate these statements, ergo Google should be held liable for that.
At the hearing, Google argued that users could check the linked sources themselves to verify whether the AI summary was correct. Users generally knew “that information generated with AI should not be blindly trusted,” the company claimed.
… And you know that’s true when the best Google could muster as a defence is to say that people shouldn’t be blindly trusting the AI, which ironically means even Google thinks their AI is full of shit.
But unfortunately for Google, not only does the court not buy that defence, but it would appear that’s contrary to how most people use the feature.
The ruling may also have international reach, according to the court.
I seriously hope so. Its about time companies started taking proper liability for the actions of their LLMs.
Every “AI” company should be (reasonably) liable for what their tools say. How is this even a novel idea?
If a newspaper accidentaly prints false information, they have to publish a correction and might pay a fine. But if they print a front page article about making a pipe bomb, then the editor would probably get sentenced.
This approach would be perfectly fine with LLMs. I understand the nature of the technology, but if they cannot guarantee the quality of the output, then the product is just not ready yet, and we are currently doing unpaid testing.
And if Google complains that it’s on the pieces of info they got from 3th parties that were wrong and name them, then the 3th parties are able to request compensation for using that info.
Exactly. Can’t have it both ways.
If Google want to claim the liability falls with the source’s its pulling from, then it should be taking explicit permission to cite these sources and be paying them.
Otherwise it’s an AI-powered editorial, and that’s on Google.
Though personally I’d be happy with the entire system being scrapped, as it only serves to fuck over small publishers and people’s ability to search for and be critical of information.
Except that this will fuck over small companies. Because if we follow this reasoning, the next step is to debate what is AI and what’s not. And the poor folk lose that battle because of legal fees.
I mean, hey, tell me how an automated summary is not AI. Argue that. Give me a clear legal standard… Easy to hand wave, hard to get right.
for liability it doesn’t matter whether small company has written the summary themselves or generated it. they already had liability for what they say.
what small companies are giving users of their search engine ai overviews? why would you argue ai summaries are not ai? what the muddy waters is going on here…?
Does it use an LLM to generate the summary. Yes or no. This is a binary. It is incredibly easy to define. It’s almost laughable that you think this is a problem.
the next step is to debate what is AI and what’s not.
Unnecessary, in my view. If you use a tool to produce something, and that something breaks a law, then you are liable, not the tool. Doesn’t matter whether it’s a hammer or an AI. If a human employed by Google had written the incorrect summary on Google’s behalf, then Google would still be liable (the difference is that the human writer might also be individually liable, depending on local law).
Search engines received various kinds of legal immunity in many jurisdictions because they were only presenting information written by third parties outside their control. These summaries are not third-party content, and if they are libelous, the responsibility falls squarely on Google.
If you use a tool to produce something, and that something breaks a law, then you are liable, not the tool.
I agree and I apply that to gun manufacturers.
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I fail to understand why it should be bad for small companies.
In my experience most small companies don’t have public AI summaries. And even if they do i still think it’s their obligation to check what they make public.
In the not so distant future just about every site will have AI summarization or QnA as a core part.
Instead of searching through endless documentation you ask AI to trawl and give you the answer. This is undeniably useful. But if they give the wrong answer once and suddenly become liable, that’s a potential risk.
There’s a difference between you making use of a tool and you publishing the results of that tool.
Why should a vendor be able to make false claims about a product with impunity?
It’s very obviously not even the tiniest bit useful and, in fact, is simply a huge liability that could be done safer and cheaper by a person.
How is it “undeniably useful” if it has the potential of giving wrong answers?
Also and perhaps more importantly, are these the lengths people go to avoid reading? If so, we are doomed.
A potential risk that any company implementing an AI for something as simple as a Q&A should be aware of prior to doing that.
If they don’t want the liability, then just don’t use AI for public facing functions. Its not difficult.
In the not so distant future just about every site will have AI summarization or QnA as a core part.
Hopefully not, and this ruling goes some way to ensuring sense prevails. It’s a little different if the LLM providing the “AI” summarization has been trained exclusively on the contents of the site; that ensures that only the work of the site authors is used in generating the summary, which means it’s their words, and also probably less likely to hallucinate.
Instead of searching through endless documentation you ask AI to trawl and give you the answer. This is undeniably useful.
I deny it. The results of an LLM being used to answer a question are far too often wrong to ever be trusted. Sometimes the errors are obvious, much more often they are subtle and harder to spot, but delivered with certainty none-the-less. This ruling ensures that the ones providing the LLM summary are held liable, in the same way they would be if a human wrote the same summary.
But if they give the wrong answer once and suddenly become liable, that’s a potential risk.
Correct, and that is as it should be. Apply the same logic to a human written piece and you will see that.
In the not so distant future you use your own personal AI to do the trawling and if that thing gets it wrong that’s on you or the company that made it.
I have a feeling that the megacorporation’s AI generating false statements about smaller businesses that effectively drives customership away from them harms a lot more small businesses way more than AI-powered businesses being held to account for what their AI states as fact publically.
(And that’s not even counting the harm Google’s AI summaries are already doing to small publishers by driving traffic away from the very websites its using as source material.)
If a company doesn’t want the liability associated with a rogue agent making false statements, then I’ve got news for you - they don’t have to use AI. Literally nobody is forcing small private businesses to use AI for anything.
And what @[email protected] has said is entirely true. Most small companies won’t have an AI, and those that do should still be held accountable for their AI’s public statements.
the AI makes its own claims that don’t appear in any linked source, and the operator has to answer for them. […] if it gains traction internationally, the fallout could hit not just Google but every AI provider
And that is a good thing!
We (the world) need at least some basic level of quality and truth in AI generated answers. FINALLY.
This appears to be impossible with current LLMs. You would need an actual human to verify every possible search result as the LLM is incapable of doing that for itself
Then I look forward to future LLMs.
Then LLMs are defective and should not be used as a replacement for web indexes or anything useful.
appears to be impossible with current LLMs
Not the court’s problem.
“Sorry, your honor, my weapon is that faulty so I can never know who it is who will be killed, but I just had to shoot because that’s how I make my money…”
That’s my point, the problem is the LLM itself shouldn’t even be being used to begin with. I’m not defending AI bullshit by any means. I’m saying “truth” or “quality” are not qualities that an LLM will ever possess by its own nature. The ultimate solution for truth or quality is no LLMs, but I guess that ship has sailed.
Sometimes it does not even matter if it is truth or not.
That may actually be such a case here: Factual statements that can create bad reputation for somebody (or some company).
That cannot be libel in most jurisdictions. I’m pretty sure that’s not the case here.
You just need to be able to reduce the risk. They all operate like this. You can’t have complete certainty, even pre-LLMs. If the answers are wrong in only 0.001% cases and gravely wrong in 0.00001% cases it may be worth the risk. You gotta be able to sue for damages after all.
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I literally laughed out loud reading the headline. Good shit, hopefully the Find Out season will carry on at this kinda pace. Probably won’t, but it’d be nice to see.
A German regional court has ruled that Google is directly liable for false claims in its AI-generated search overviews.
Unfortunately, the regional court is the lowest court stage. This will climb up until highest German court and after this to the EU court, I expect to see.
Being then a „Grundsatzurteil“ that is leading all courts in Germany. Our legal system isn’t case driven.
Unfortunately, the regional court is the lowest court stage
No. Landgericht is the second stage already.
It’s Germany, they’ll just find a way to blame Brussels and throw more money at the US as an apology.
This isn’t final. Google has time to appeal. Let’s hold off on the label “landmark” until it reaches legal effectiveness. Which it probably won’t, however good a verdict by a German regional court, much less one based in Bavaria, this is in my opinion.
Google lawyers arguing in court that Google’s so-called AI results are shit anyways and people should know it is chef’s kiss.
I don’t know where you’re from, but typically within the EU, especially in countries like Germany, Google and other mega corporations from the US don’t have that much sway (yet) within the justice system. I wouldn’t be surprised if this is validated in the near future by more impactful courts.
I think my sniping at Bavaria speaks for itself.
They don’t need sway as much as money and lawyers, which I imagine they have. And this verdict is probably on the worst outcome end of the scale for them. I cannot imagine they will accept a ruling that calls them daft like this one does. They will try to water down liability for their model’s fantasy summaries. Whether they succeed is a different question. But they will try, so they will appeal, so this verdict isn’t worth the paper it’s printed on. Yet.
All I said is that this verdict isn’t effective yet. These headlines and sadly this article buries this fact in a sentence in the last paragraph. Blink and you miss it stuff. Lemmies tend to overlook this and declare victory over Google when this was merely the first battle of the war.
It will be a “landmark” case, regardless of what the outcome is.
On that we are agreed. The headline speaks of a landmark ruling, which I think is too much acclaim for a decision a higher court could just dismiss.
I mean yeah? This is the only way to square the circle. Same as if you buy a thing from amazon, it does not matter what they try to pull in the back you went and bought a thing from a place. If you google a thing and google shows a wrong (and often plain dangerous) answer then yeah, that counts as google! Maybe if they did not also try and fake the result being true they could have an argument.
And there is already precedence for this as a few nation’s courts have found that a company is bound by promises made by their own AI agents that it empowers to answer customers. This is just the same idea but for search. I hope it goes though all the German courts and is picked up in other places.
Interesting showstopper for the AI-Bubble. Let’s see where this is going.
All they need to do is use the exact text from the answers and attribute them to the source…
