If you can’t tell the difference between an e bike and an e motorcycle then you shouldn’t be legislating
How should one distinguish them? Pedals are the obvious way, but they don’t have anything to do with safety. A bike could have pedals and go 200 km/h.
What would a bike require to go 200km/h.
Seriously. Think about it.
A motor. Which is what ebikes have. The difference between a 20km/h ebike and a 200km/h ebike is the strength of the motor.
If you don’t cap the strength of the motor to be classified as an “ebike”, one could build an electric motorcycle that goes 200km/h and call it an ebike.
That’s exactly what i’m talking about.
We’re facing similar kneejerk laws down here and there is a massive world of difference between a 250-500w ebike and a multi kilowatt emote / dirt bike. However, legislators are acting like a goddamn 250w pedelec with an assist cutout at 30kph is the same as an illegally imported kilowatt emote some dipshit 17 year old ploughs into the back of a parked car at 60kph
I think we probably agree on the fundamentals here: it’s the power and speed that should be a regulatory distinction.
That’s not e-bike versus e-motorcycle exactly. It doesn’t matter what the form factor or control mechanism is. If it’s fast and powerful, you can’t ride it on bike paths and need a driver’s license to take it on the road.
I’d say stick a 30mph limit as a cutoff for needing to be licensed, with anything above that to just be considered a scooter (the 49cc kind that need licensed but aren’t allowed on freeways) and anything faster than that a motorcycle, and be done with it.
Just as an inspiration: in Germany the cut-off is 25 km/h (I’ll leave doing the math to you). I think that’s almost reasonable. Personally I’d favor 30 km/h, because that’s a common speed limit for residential areas over here and that would allow them to better flow with traffic.
That’s only 15 mph and it pretty damned terrible, really. That’s slower than my cruising speed on my road bike and only half as fast as my burst speed when trying to go really quick. 40kmh would be about 25mph and that seems like an acceptable speed to have without being too unsafe to me.
Ah, an important fact I forgot to mention this rule applies to bikes with pedalling assistance, so pedelecs, strictly speaking. Real E-bikes, that can use their motor by flicking a switch always require a license plate. That’s the silly part of the law her, imho. I just added this fact after having written the rest.
If you’re doing more than 15 mph as a long-term cruising speed and 30 mph burst, I have to assume, you’re a fairly fit and healthy person. And of course it wouldn’t feel unsafe for you to do the same speeds with an E-bike. But what you have to consider is, that these bikes are also very popular with people who are not fit enough to reach those speeds unassisted and maybe haven’t even ridden a bike for a long time. When I see some of our elderly citizens using them, I’m pretty happy they aren’t allowed to go that much faster, since they are also not restricted to use roads and often share the way with pedestrians.
What you also have to put into consideration is, that this limit doesn’t mean, that you cannot go faster, it’s just that the assistance shuts of at ~15 mph and everything on top, you have to pedal in yourself. Which is a bit more exhausting, due to the overall heavier bike, but something I regularly do, even though I ride a pretty shoddy 10 year-old bike with less than ideal mechanics.
The overall experience of riding a bike like that is pretty damn great still and not at all as terrible, as you make it sound. You can go your regular cruising speed on flat parts, no restriction for downhill, but you get an extra lift for uphill sections, and what’s the biggest plus for me is the extra acceleration - and ease thereof - when you have to stop at cross-sections and traffic-lights.
It’s all depended on the surrounding traffic and environment a bit, so I’m not saying a carbon copy of that rule would be ideal for the US for example. But even though I’d wish for 3 mph more, it works pretty well around here. And don’t forget that you can simply get a bike with a license plate for anythig beyond those rules.
You make some good points. What is of special annoyance in the US is that bikes are NOT allowed where pedestrians walk. Bikes are required to be in bike lanes (don’t exist in most areas) or on the road with vehicles. The city I work in for instance, has quite a few sidewalks for people, but bikes aren’t allowed on them. They just have to be in streets with other cars.
Yeah, though I’ve never visited, I’m aware that US traffic is in large parts a hellscape for anything that isn’t a car or motorcycle.
So very different circumstances. Arguably, the solution would be a shifting paradigm in urban planning, rather than fast E-bikes. But the latter is obviously much easier to achieve.
30mph is FAST, A 49cc moped is going to be able to hit a top speed of 30 miles per hour.
I’d say a speed limit for no licensing/registration/insurance should be 15mph. Thats about the speed an average cyclist would be able to go without electronic assists.
30 is not hard on a bike, dont need an ebike to do that
I can do 30+ on a road bike, and you can get a 49cc scooter to 40. The ones that cap at 30 are big or have limiters put on them. 30 is pretty fast, but not crazy fast. My little brother has a tricked out Onewheel that he races. It does 40mph. Now that’s crazy fast.
You’re sustaining 30 for over an hour on a road bike solely by pedaling? I didn’t know we had olympians in the comments
Lol. No, but do you think it’s safer to pedal your ass off at thirty, or casually doing it on an e bike where you can look around and see everything else?
You are misreading that he said he could keep it up for an hour
True, I did exaggerate. But the reality is sustained motorized speed is entirely different from a cyclist’s burst speed, which is exactly why they shouldn’t be regulated the same way.
I’d argue the opposite.
There already is. Class III e bikes end at 28mph. Beyond that they’re supposed to be plated.
I’d call this a problem that already has its solution in place, then. I’d bet the bigger issue is just people with faster bikes not following the law.
The number of children I see zooming around the neighborhood without helmets and not even stopping at stop signs (I legit almost hit one kid one time who blew through a stop sign in front of me), is pretty horrifying. Their parents have basically given them all small motorcycles and let them go free with no supervision. It just seems so unsafe.
Not just children, but adults too! They’re more likely to have a helmet on, but stop a stop sign? Nah, they don’t have to stop, they are immune to traffic laws!
Stop signs and traffic lights only exist to stop cars from killing people, bicycles do not need stop signs.
It is safer for bicyclists to run stop signs than it is to come to a complete stop. Also who the fuck in 2026 actually stops at a stop sign? Nobody does.
Kids having independence is a good thing. They are probably the first in their family to be independent from cars and so their parents don’t teach them cycling etiquette.
Yes independence is a good thing. If they were riding normal bikes, I’d have few issues with them. However, the way things currently are, I see a decent number of dead or disabled children in the future.
The issue here is that we have no way to verify from your text whether you almost hit them because of their lack of responsibility, or if you weren’t paying enough attention.
As someone with extensive experience with bike commuting on a regular bike, I have had multiple near death experiences while obeying all traffic laws properly and using multiple light sources. Even with my new 10 minute walking commute, the simple act of crossing the street safely when the street lights tell me to cross, has proved to be asking too much with multiple near hits in only a few months.
Humans are not remotely responsible enough to drive.
Lol I was paying perfect attention. Only reason the kid was ok was that I was far enough back to slam on my breaks (and was going the speed limit). I doubt he even realized how risky the move he pulled was.
In all fairness, I’ve also nearly been hit by asshole pickup trucks blowing the same stop sign. Guess it might just be that intersection that makes people think it’s optional.
Some vehicles that people call “ebikes” should absolutely be registered and plated. You should not be able to take a motorized vehicle on a bike path and zoom through at 50+ MPH. The surron kiddies are going to ruin alternative transportation for everyone. Sure, surrons aren’t ebikes (and something like a super 76 which has pedals really should be regulated as part of its own category like emoped or something), but regulators are going to want to put everything in nice near categories and ban everything else.
Genuinely nobody follows stop signs. I think it’s like 20% actually come to a stop?
With bicycles, it’s safer to treat stop signs as a yield signs since coming to a full stop means you’ll cross the intersection much more slowly than if you keep some speed.
Hell, I’ve had kids riding down the opposite lane of traffic riding wheelies and swerving around. Absolutely no accountability.
Helmets are bad for safety because (1) car drivers act more dangerous around cyclists wearing helmets and (2) they discourage people from riding bikes whereas the primary safety factor of cycling, by far, is the number of people cycling.
huh? I never wear a helmet outside of escooters but I’m not going to argue that no helmet is safer than helmet
What a stupid idea.
EMS treats a pedestrian vs pedal bicycle accident the same as a pedestrian vs car accident.
Ebikes can go a lot faster.
Can, but more important thing is the weight. While lightweight bicycles can easily exceed 25km/h (and I personally can reach 40km/h with mine), they’re usually much lighter, obviously. This comes with a noticeable difference in the impact itself. You could argue they’re more stable or have better brakes, but people are just more irresponsible with them. I can bet my left ball on the fact that statistically ebikes crash more often than non-ebikes (per capita) and the crashes are almost always more severe
they’re usually much lighter, obviously
Sure. But if the combined weight of rider and bike is around 100kg and that rises to 115kg for an electric, then that’s not a huge difference.
100kg biker
Cars can go even faster and actually do kill thousands of people, but god fucking forbid we talk about slowing those down because we’re so normalized to their violence that we’re blind to it. I agree with the person you replied to, this is monumentally stupid. Give micromobility their own infrastructure, repurpose space currently given to cars. We’ve gotra stop pearl-clutching over sustainable progress.
It’s not an either/or proposition.
A stupid person on an ebike can cause an accident.
And they slow down cars all the time. There are speed bumps galore near me.
Most so-called ebike deaths are actually car deaths, because the cyclist gets hit by a car
14 year old on an suron killed an 81 year old pedestrian here. The mom is being charged with involuntary manslaughter.
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Cars require a license that can be taken away if the driver is a danger to society. They also drive on their own roads.
An e-bike can hit pretty high speeds and is usually ridden on pedestrian walkways. There’s no license to take away, and if you don’t get caught immediately, you can just go bye bye since there’s no license plate.
That’s why they’re introducing regulations limiting unlicensed e-bikes to reasonable speeds, while more powerful e-bikes are still available if you’re 18 and get a license plate. You can still ride it without any training since those don’t assist you past 45 km/h either… Though personally I’m of the opinion that an ebike capable of hitting 45 km/h in 2 seconds on a pedestrian walkway should require training and a license too. Or just be banned from sidewalks.
Places that allow any sort of bike on the sidewalk are generally places that have neglected to bother with any sort of adequate biking infrastructure.
The new law lays the groundwork for Intelligent Speed Assistance (ISA) technology, which uses GPS and onboard sensors to prevent vehicles from exceeding posted speed limits, to be used by super speeders. This is not a blanket mandate; it focuses on the most dangerous drivers while allowing safe mobility for the general public.
If this like a breathalyzer that only gets installed in some people’s cars, or is it going to have to be in all cars?
But cars already require licenses and have speed limits? Now we’re talking about limiting unlicensed e-bikes, whereas with a motorcycle license you could still go as fast as cars or… motorcycles.
How about we just license the ebikes according to what they’re capable of like we do with cars and motorcycles?
Uhh that’s what everyone’s whining about here though. Not even a license requirement, a simple minimum age and license plate for high speed ebikes.
I think everyone in here is whining about slightly different things because of how many aspects there are to this discourse.
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As a cyclist, I’m all for e-bikes requiring a license.
Most e-bikes in my area are ridden by people who can’t get a driver’s license. This includes people underage, people with their license revoked, and people who have restrictions on their licenses.
And people regularly remove the regulators on those bikes, making them unsafe on the roads.
Meanwhile, they’re also tearing up the mountain bike trails I normally ride on my pedal bike. Many of the people riding these have zero traffic safety training, zero trail etiquette, and zero interest in cooperating with others.
Last week at dusk I had what looked like a 13 year old riding his bike behind me in city traffic, doing a wheelie. Eventually he swerved around me to cross oncoming traffic and hop up onto the sidewalk on the other side of the street so he could avoid an intersection.
Sure, there’s probably plenty of well behaved e-bike riders out there, but the volume of unsafe ones I’ve seen over the past month is insane.
As a cyclist, I’m all for e-bikes requiring a license.
As a cyclist, I disagree. For traffic, we only need licensing on e-bikes that support people to go faster than ±20 km/h whithout pedalling to such speed by their own body strength. Basically: treat e-bike like the motorcycles they are. But ± 20km/h is a speed a normal healthy person on a normal non-electric bicycle can also easily achieve. It’s a generally safe speed in most situations. If it isn’t, it’s a mental health or sociopath behavior of the driver / very poor street infrastructure problem, but the light e-bike shouldn’t have to take the blame.
On mountainbike trails (and on hiking trails!!!) i’m more in favor of something getting close a complete ban for anything motorised.
I agree with you in principle, but those rental e-scooters reach 25 km/h far faster than the average commuter could with pedals. In cities, cyclists usually don’t hit that kind of speed very often (you have intersections and stuff after all) and those who do, clearly have had plenty of practice.
I do still support them being license free up to about that speed though. Just saying they’re actually slightly more dangerous than pedal operated bicycles.
I think I agree! Are we talking about the same? I was talking about e-bicycles (regular looking bicycle with battery and motor, which doesn’t help you anymore above that cut-off speedlimit), not e-scooters (the one with tiny wheels, stand-up while riding, no pedalling at all). The e-scooters can just all have licenses and license plates imo, it’s a normal motorised vehicle, has nothing at all in common with a bicycle)
Where I come from, e-scooters and e-bikes are both classed as “light motorized vehicles” so the same regulations apply. And e-bicycles on high assist require close to no input so IMO they’re not actually very different from e-scooters in terms of how dangerous they are to pedestrians (bicycle will have better stability, but the scooter will be able to swerve quicker so it evens out). Which I’m not saying the ones limited to 25 km/h should require a license and a license plate, but I’m saying that at that speed they start getting more dangerous than regular cyclists at the same speed (who have to work to hit that speed), so it makes sense that e-bikes that can go faster (even if they’re still “assisted”) require licensing.
One of the issues you’d run into there is enforcement by definitions. For something comparable, see the scene in Breaking Bad where Hank pins down the RV, but can’t go inside without a warrant because it’s a “domicile”, not a vehicle.
If an ebike user with pedals is pulled over, in some cases it can be hard to factually prove the electric motor is working, since they could still theoretically get up to speed with it (I’ve brought mine home on a 100% dead battery before. Slightly tougher, but still traffic safe)
Perhaps you live in a car dependent area and e bikes are the first viable non car mode of transport in your area and so you are seeing those growing pains of introducing a new mode of transportation for the first time in its history.
Ebikes should not need a license, the bikes themselves need regulation so they are safe without one.
Ebikes should not need a license, the bikes themselves need regulation so they are safe without one.
Agreed. What in my country are class I and II bikes should not need a license. The regulation you speak of should “regulate” class III bikes as something other than an “e-bike”, and require license/registration/insurance. We already do this with hypothetical class IV bikes; a motorcycles.
You’re proposing more restrictions to what end? All licensing will do is hurt people that are unable to obtain a license like you listed in your post. That doesn’t automatically mean that roads will be safer or rider law enforcement will be better.
Sure the ones that aren’t following safe practices are egregious, but that’s the same with cars too. I literally saw someone in a van swerve around a line of cars to blindly cut across a highway through a red light. No amount of regulation or licensing is going to prevent that.
The best method to fixing traffic issues is planning better infrastructure first and then adding enforcement in problematic sections.
Meanwhile, they’re also tearing up the mountain bike trails I normally ride on my pedal bike. Many of the people riding these have zero traffic safety training, zero trail etiquette, and zero interest in cooperating with others.
More money than brains.
California is spot on and if the e-bike is able to travel above 25 km/h it should be illegal to ride in the bicycle lane. Why the hell are kids riding an e-bike when they should be building endurance and muscles.
Lemmy when offline driver monitoring to prevent dui and falling asleep, texting: 🤬🤬
Lemmy when requiring license and registration just to ride a bicycle: 🤭
It’s more nuanced than just “regulation bad and I want my freedom.” With the war in Iran destroying the world’s energy economy, people will be forced to use cheaper modes of transportation. And when there aren’t any buses/trains, E-bikes are a good solution. The problem will be that too many people will be pushed into it and some people are just retarded. There will be reckless people and there will be those that can barely operate the vehicle. I think it’s worth considering some form of regulations knowing that they’re may be an E-bike boom in the coming years (or maybe even months).
[Analog] cyclist here. I’m of the opinion if it has a throttle, it needs some sort of registration and maybe even minimal insurance.
Class I (in the US), you don’t need anyone’s permission to ride. Just like a regular bicycle.
Class III, you need some sort of registration/license. Might as well be a motorcycle.Class II is where we can have some discussion and disagreement.
Maybe I am mistaken on e bike ratings but can’t you have a class 3 without a throttle? And isn’t the definition of a class 2 that it does have a throttle?
I think you’ll find the definitions of what constitutes each class is fairly moot when there’s no-one enforcing the differences. You’re right, not all class IIIs have throttles, but the ones that are causing the most problems definitely do.
You don’t have that correct. Not your fault, the system is very confusing.
Class III can’t have throttles by definition. They have a max speed of 28mph.
Class II have throttles but a top speed of 20mph.
Class I have no throttles and a top speed of 20mph.
You are thinking of unclassified bikes (electric dirtbikes, mopeds, and motorcycles).
Fair enough, thanks for the correction. At least from my revisiting of the classifications, class III seem to allow (but not require) throttles in most places, but– to your point– not allowed in California.
My incorrectness proves a larger point, I think, that the unclassified bikes are often grouped into “e-bikes” and those at least need to be regulated. That we don’t allow class III e-bikes on multi-use trails muddy the water between III and unclassified, at least to me.
Let’s work on gun registration, then I’ll be open to it.
Not sure where you are in the world, but where I am guns are most certainly registered.
Give you ONE guess 🤣🤣🤣
Your country already seems sensible, so I’d probably be ok with registration.
Somewhere in the American South? If so, I can see how you have such a pessimistic view of the US. My view from California is also pessimistic, but maybe not quite as much as if I were from, say, Florida or Texas.
Getting back to the original point, I’m not thrilled with the idea of any bike registration. But do have to agree with the idea of something being done about the dangerous class IIIs.
East, but not south. I’m fully against any sort of internet ID until we can at least talk about gun registration. I’m all for guns, I’ve owned a few, pistol, rifles, etc, currently only own 2, but if we can’t talk about limiting who can get a firearm, then they can fuck off about ID bullshit.
Figured you’d be in a more developed country by the way your comment read.
It’s certainly not Norway or Finland, but I like to think California is at least on the right side of “developed.” However, CAs push for age verification is most certainly misguided (at best) or downright wrong.
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I’ve got a skateboard and unicycle myself, I think all these things are great, but you’ve highlighted the big problems that exist today. It’s the kids that have no sense, whip by people walking, being ignorant to traffic rules, etc.
I watched 2 kids on a gravel path whip by on escooters past a 5 year old swaying back and forth on a pedal bike as he was obviously trying to learn. That could have gotten bad.
I agree with all of your points. However, in California, ebikes are already regulated:
https://riding5.com/blogs/news/california-ebike-laws-class-1-2-3
The only “wild west” thing happening is that some people are riding illegal, (they’re already illegal. We don’t need new laws) unregistered electric motorcycles. The 30+ mph “ebikes” you refer to: those are motorcycles.
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How do you know which one is illegal? It’s the one that’s going too fast.
Ebikes are an excellent, relatively inexpensive solution to several problems. They’re going to try to regulate them until they become impractical.
Oh no… Can’t have people travelling around without flock cameras being able to establish travel patterns…
As more people turn to e bikes for commutes or errands, government needs to be able to track and Id you.
/s but still its probably true
The convenient surveillance doesn’t exactly discourage the government from supporting/driving car-centric communities.
I would support something that gets other cyclists to stop breaking the law. Running stop signs and red lights is dangerous for no fucking reason. I’m not sure if this is the right way though.
Maybe we should give them license plates and ban the flock cameras. Two birds, one stone.
Stop signs and stop lights only exist to prevent cars from killing people, they aren’t necessary for bicycles going under 25mph.
ive seen cyclist almost run over people, by going extremely fast, and they warn pedestrians at all, or they make a obnoxious loud noise that is equally dangerous when it also involves cars.
Studies show that treating stop signs as yield signs and lights as stop signs saves cyclist lives. See the Idaho stop.
What makes cars safe to be around is not necessary for cyclist safety to themselves or others.
The cyclists around where I am ignore stop signs and lights. I’ve seen some that will get to a red light, take a right without stopping. Immediately take a u turn less that 30 feet from the intersection. Then take another right without stopping.
I’m not convinced that criminalizing them is the correct answer. Ideally we would just build real bike infrastructure and public transit. Less cars on the road is also probably a lot safer for cyclists and pedestrians.
I’m gonna play devil’s advocate here a little bit. If you can drive a “bicycle” the same as a scooter (30 mph motorized vehicle) why would you not regulate the same? Scooters have to be registered and I think these 30mph ebikes with a throttle are pretty much the same thing. Should have reg and insurance if your doing 30 and operating on the roadways as a motorized vehicle. Otherwise why did I register any of my motorcycles? Why register a car? Read about ebike injuries. Their more akin to motorcycle crashes than bicycle accidents. Also can cause damage to other motor vehicles and injure pedestrians just as much as a scooter would.
I’ve put 4000 miles on my e-bike in the past 2 years. Even though I follow traffic laws, I’ve seen far too much fuckery by other e-bike riders. I’m seeing children riding e-bikes and scooters, without helmets, doing crazy shit in the middle of the road almost cause accidents. I have narrowly avoided hitting such children on 3 separate occasions. I see plenty of adults on these things also not following traffic laws and riding these things on busy sidewalks.
I really do not want e-bikes to be regulated like cars. Being forced to register and carry insurance makes an inexpensive thing expensive. That being said, there are tons of dumb assholes out there that will ruin it for the rest of us.
Registering is fine, a lot of people voluntarily register their expensive bikes with local police that have those programs anyway.
Insurance is weirder. Cars require as much insurance as they do because they weigh multiple tons and can kill people and destroy infrastructure. A powered bike can do a lot of damage, especially if it rams someone, but it has an order of magnitude less destructive potential than a car. Especially for a limited powered bike insurance “should” be significantly cheaper.
The difference is honestly closer to two orders of magnitude.
E = 1/2mv^2
1/2 * 1000kg * 50 km/h * 50 km/h * 0.2778 mh/skm * 0.2778 mh/skm = 96 kJ
1/2 * 100kg * 25 km/h * 25 km/h * 0.2778 mh/skm * 0.2778 mh/skm = 2 kJ
I don’t agree with any of idea of registering a bike but what did people expect? Slap a motor on a bike and the cops are going to target you. Hell, no motor and they still will.
You’re not really a “cyclist” if a motor is doing a bunch of the work. That’s the equivalent of those mopeds we had in the ‘70s that you could pedal, too. Probably went 35-40 mph. Nobody in their right mind would call them bicycles or call the riders cyclists. It’s a motorized bike.
Depends, if it’s pedal assist it’s most definitely cyclists. If it’s just a throttle then I agree
have you tried “cycling” on stronger electric bikes with the support mode set to “sport” or “highest”? Moving the pedals is pretty damn symbolic on these vehicles, less than 10% of the actual energy needed to move is provided by the legs, it’s almost all motor. It’s like they moved the throttle control to the pedals.
It’s a motorized bike.
But not to be confused with a motorcycle, which is something different.
Semantics.
Just common usage has made a “motorized bicycle” of yesteryear into its own vehicle class today. It’s exactly the same thing with e-bikes hitting 30+ mph speeds, just electric motors instead of an ICE.
Good, they’re great technology. Regulation and legislation will allow them to be used safely resulting in fewer cars on the road.
