If you’re anything like my parents, you probably wouldn’t even understand most of the content that floods my social media, no matter how hard I try to avoid it.
Here’s a recent example from Instagram: “Do y’all females ever tell ur homegirls ‘Sis chill you letting too many dudes hit?’” Essentially, that means: “Women – do you ever tell your girlfriends that they’re whores and need to stop letting so many guys fuck them?” The reel, posted by a 19-year-old man, appeared on my Instagram feed without me wanting to see it, or ever interacting with any other similar content. The comments that followed were pure misogyny. “Women see body count as a leaderboard and they try to outdo each other,” was one of them. Translation: all women are competitively promiscuous.
Consider the use of the word “female” in these posts. It is not a neutral term here, it is a term of abuse. It’s used by teenage boys to degrade us and equate us to animals. Boys are never described as “males”, but girls are always “females” – the equivalent of sows or calves, creatures that are less than human. We’re also “thots” (whores), “community pussy” and “bops”. “Bop” stands for “been over passed” and is a derogatory term used by boys to refer to a girl they’ve decided has been “passed around” or had too much sex. Sexual equality has ceased to exist online. It’s absolutely fine for boys to have sex, but when girls do, they are called worthless and referred to as objects. “When community pussy tries to insult me, I just want to beat that bitch up.” That’s a message I saw on TikTok.
I’m a 15-year-old schoolgirl and like most teenagers I spend a fair portion of my spare time on social media, often scrolling through short-form videos on apps such as Instagram or TikTok. All of my friends use those apps, and many spend multiple hours a day on them. I actively try to avoid online misogyny, but I am met with it incessantly whenever I open my mainstream social media apps. It only takes a few minutes before there’s subtle or overt misogyny, such as comment sections on a girl’s post filled with remarks about her body, videos made by men or boys captioned with a degrading joke, and even topics such as domestic violence or rape, trivialised and laughed about.
Don’t use Instagram or TikTok ✅👍
Enragebait is a well known consequence of using a profit-driven Algorithm, i.e. enshittification.
15-year-olds are not being specifically targeted so much as caught up in the phenomena occuring overall.
The thing is this isn’t a phenomena that’s recent. This type of shitty misogynism has been going on for decades/centuries. The only difference between then and now is that we have social apps that make it easier to spread.
I’m coming up on 70 yrs old and misogynism has always been the bane of my existence.
The extent of apps promoting and amplifying this hate posting is a recent phenomenon, through the so-called algorithmic feeds. It all needs attacking.
Yep.
The primary problem is that ‘the algorithm’ amplifies all of our worst traits, to the extent that someone is not critical of what it is showing them.
Oh, and its also addictive.
Oh, and its also hugely profitable.
Its a giant ratking of feedback loops, and we really should just use Alexander’s solution to knots.
The underlying biases and bigotry in humanity has ways of addressing and alleviating it.
But apparently, nothing is strong enough to defeat convenient, targeted, personalized reinforcement of basically, your Jungian shadow.
And its very much relevant that all of this is done to sell advertisements and establish brands, which themselves basically just are also selling you validation, a personality, opinions, ‘facts’.
Its the fanciest Skinner Box that’s ever been designed.
I’m not quite 70 years old, but I’ve been around for long enough to laugh at this line from the article: “Sexual equality has ceased to exist online”
Only a 15 year old could think that sexual equality ever existed online. It may be hard to believe, but it’s probably better now than it ever has been. Back in the early days online spaces were so male dominated that people had trouble believing that women were even online at all.
Maybe we shouldn’t laugh at it because we still have young women having to go through this kind of revelation after thousands of years of civilization.
I’m not actually laughing at it.
If misogyny were somehow magically solved tomorrow, then Xhitter would still remain a
misogynistichellhole, featuring a cesspit of whatever traits of humanity triggered clicking or views or whatever generates the highest profits (maybe in the future, trying to gain the attention of bots will vastly outweigh what happens to us here humans, in the same manner as corporations replaced individual businesses in the economic sphere?).The specific situation described in the article is misogy, but it points to deeper roots of enshittification. The 15 year old girl will still feel put upon, even unsafe, even if it has nothing to do with her femininity anymore.
good thing these men don’t exist outside of social media! whew, we dodged a big one there…
and i sure hope this school girl doesn’t go to any place regularly where she sees these teenage boys, oh wouldn’t that be unfortunate???
School is mandatory, Xhitter is not.
If she walked home and along the way stopped off at a particular cafe, and always got side-eyed by people there… then yeah, I would say hang out somewhere else?
Be the change that you want to see in the world, and all of that.
Don’t use Instagram or TikTok
Yeah, in general, my answer to “I don’t like using Internet site X” is “well, don’t use that site.”
There are a vast number of sites out there. Use one that you like. I don’t have a very high opinion of lemmygrad.ml, but I deal with that by not going there.
“But TikTok is a big site!”
Okay. I don’t use Instagram or TikTok. I can assure you that it’s very possible to not use them.
“But my friends use Website X!”
Well, making the probably-reasonable assumption that the relationship is symmetric and they also use it because you do, that situation isn’t going to change unless someone decides to use something else.
I think this type of argument is relatively flawed. Obviously I’m very happy to leave one platform for another, but most people dont like change and want to be where thier friends are. I think it’s reasonable to expect them to get over the former, but because of the former they would probably have to leave their friends behind. Thats obviously not viable for teenagers and it’s a rare few that are willing to do that into thier 20s as well.
Seeing as getting people to make a move is so hard I think forcing these platforms not to be so vile would be a good move. We should put the onus on the platforms, not the users.
If i avoided every place I ever encountered misogyny, my life would shrink considerably. Forget work. Never a church. Goodbye school, the grocery store, movie theaters, almost all spaces online, my local park.
Woman: I keep getting catcalled on the street and it’s disturbing my sense of safety.
OpenStars: stop going outside, easy.
Knowing that these sites are bad and the algorithm is part of that doesn’t make “just don’t use those sites” a viable option when most or all of someone’s peers are also using them. That is part of the social media companies’ strategy, to make switching costs so high no one leaves.
Woman: I keep getting catcalled on the street and it’s disturbing my sense of safety.
OpenStars: stop going outside, easy.
False equivalency. Going outside is not similar to using Instagram.
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Looks like you’ve mistakenly replied to the wrong comment. Which is ironic because… try reading? With your eyes?
Yep. Apologies.
I agree with your sentiment here. Obviously, it’s possible to avoid using Instagram and TikTok, and it’s basically impossible to avoid using the street.
On the other hand, if you’re a teenage girl, it may be nearly impossible to not use these big corporate social media sites. A big part of being a teen is socializing with other teens. A big part of being an adolescent is learning to fit in with other adolescents without constant adult supervision. It’s one of the reason that home schooled kids have a rough time once they hit college, university or work. Many remain deeply strange for a long while after that.
If all the other teens in your social group are using Instagram and TikTok and you’re the one person who isn’t, you’re probably going to be ostracized. Liking and commenting on each-other’s social media posts is an important ritual of friendship at that age.
Sometimes parents ban or restrict social media usage by their kids. To a certain extent that can shield the kid, because it’s no longer their fault, and their friends might accept that. But, still, if the kid isn’t on social media, they’re probably not getting invited to in-person events, they don’t know what the important topics of conversation are, and so-on.
I mean, the nerve of saying “don’t use social media” on a social media site is pretty rich. And, don’t think a 15-year old is going to switch from TikTok to PeerTube or something. You might be able to get them to try it out, but you’re not easily going to migrate her entire friend group. The content is also not there. Plus, fediverse sites are inhabited by deeply strange people. I love you all, but I wouldn’t want you interacting with a 15 year old girl.
I love you all, but I wouldn’t want you interacting with a 15 year old girl.
Such a strange thing to say. A lot of the people here probably have daughters around that age. A lot of the people here are perfectly normal people.
Such a strange thing to say.
Wait, you include yourself?! 🤣
Well someone has to be first to switch platforms.
If you always get catcalled between Fourth Street and Sixth Street, and you never get catcalled on First through Third Street or Seventh and above, then yeah, maybe just know that going onto Fifth Street you might get catcalled?
You could try expressing your explicit disapproval to Elon Musk directly, maybe that will help?
Actually no, it’s not just “Fifth Street”, it’s Fifth Street in an entirely different country. Tiktok is based on China, Insta and Twitter are in the USA. Normally the rules governing a platform are a combination of the origination point and whatever interrelations exist - although obviously Donald Trump is rewriting those at will to suit him. And yet the UK could do the same… or make an alternative, if it wanted to?
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This isn’t realistic to tell a kid who uses social media
Sure it is, you just don’t like the answer. Which is strange coming from someone who is presumably on Lemmy because they didn’t like the way reddit was conducting business and decided to leave. You moved to a competing service, it’s also an option to just not use those types of social media at all.
This thread has real orphan-crushing-machine vibes to it. Many just take for granted that of course kids have to use social media. They don’t and neither do you. It’s not the path of least resistance but why would you expect taking care of yourself to be easy in a society designed to do everything possible to beat you into submission and extract value from the lifeless husk that remains?
“But but Lemmy is social media and you participate here. Curious.”
No, not in the same way that Instagram and the rest are. Pseudo-anonymous forums are fundamentally different both in the way people interact with one another and in the types of content they tend to generate.
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If you just say “stop using this thing you like” without an actual motivation behind it, you won’t have any more success than if you put a pack of cigarettes on the kitchen counter of a smoker and say “Don’t you smoke these! It’s bad for you!”
First of all, it doesn’t sound like these people actually like these platforms. The article in the OP is about a girl describing the pervasive abuse she experiences while using them. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to say in response “you’re clearly not enjoying this so just stop doing it”. Second, that is fundamentally sound advice to both this girl and the person smoking in your analogy. The fact that both might be hard habits to break doesn’t make the solution any less simple. Simple != easy.
you’re ignoring the massive wall of incentive pushed on people by capital forces to use the largest, most commercially active platforms
No I’m not. I specifically called that out in my response. As I said, avoiding them as the solution may not be easy but it is simple in concept. Maintaining your health in all forms is hard to do but the steps to follow are not complex.
I can’t really follow what your imagined argument is about
I have seen people in this thread and others use that argument as a way to sidestep the conversation at hand and pivot to something more juvenile and uninteresting. I added it to head off that line of thinking and prevent this from trending in a pointless direction. If you weren’t about to say something like that then feel free to ignore it but I wanted to make it clear I’m not interested in going down that path with you or anyone else reading the thread and considering replying.
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You’re presenting additional nuance as if it disproves what I’m saying and it doesn’t. I understand that overcomimg any addiction is more difficult than saying “I’m going to stop this behavior”. However, any approach you decide to take is fundamentally just breaking down that ultimate goal into practical steps. I’ve repeatedly said I agree that there are usually more steps involved but you seem categorically opposed to agreeing that changing your behavior is the goal of any addiction treatment and that seems like a you problem more than a problem with anything that I’m saying.
If you just bothered reading instead of vomiting words, you’d learn the problem is persistent to real life, too. Asshole.
Of course it is. Do you think “misogyny exists in real life” is a novel idea to anyone old enough to know what that word means? You can’t opt out of being exposed to it in real life though so unless you’re proposing suicide as a solution I’m not sure how that’s related to what we’re discussing. Dumbass.
This isn’t a specific platform problem, it’s a social problem and needs social solutions.
The erosion of free (or mostly free), teen-friendly physical third spaces is a big part of this problem, imo. As is the culture of clamping down on kids’ free movement irl. Young people need to have safe spots to hang out together without being pressured to spend money or have a ton of adults breathing down their necks.
Not saying that misogyny or bigotry would disappear, but bringing these back in an accessible way could allow kids to grow again without dealing with corporate surveillance apparatuses as their only social lifeline.
I quite enjoyed hanging out with my friends without having a flood of antisocial adults hurl venom at us on repeat. They deserve that chance too.
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What would make YOU excited to go out and hang out around other people? I feel that the entire premise is dying, and adults are equally crippled by this problem as kids
That’s a completely fair question and point.
My being an adult skews my answer, so idk if it’s a fair one but I recently went to a local concert and had a blast with the other people there. What makes me, as an individual, excited overall is knowing other people will be there and the place will feel alive.
Unstructured but available activity seems to be the unifying theme for the location attractions of our own pasts. I don’t have a perfect solution but identifying the issues seems to be a step, at least.
This isn’t a platform problem
It is though. You think the spreading of this content is an accident? They could change the algorithm tomorrow and it would disappear, but they won’t because this division is useful to them.
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There’s some truth to that but the lack of algorithmic manipulation will make it easier to deal with. Plus you just have more options here on Lemmy to deal with it. Most instance operators have shown a willingness to restrict or even defederate from other instances when they are consistently shit to deal with.
This isn’t realistic to tell a kid who uses social media, it’s like saying “Don’t play Xbox” or “Don’t watch new releases, only watch stuff that’s out on video already”
Do these kids just not have parents or adult guardians?
The vast majority probably do. For a parent or guardian to be useful in this sort of situation they need to take an active interest and forge a bond with their ward, and this day and age I don’t think that all who wish to do that have the ability to, and there’ll be a decent chunk of people who simply don’t care.
I’ve a parent who didn’t really give a fuck. I ended up hitting up lots of random dudes, making a bid for some kind of emotional connection, and no one in my personal vicinity knew, cared, or cared to know. It was a terrible idea, but my story is hardly unique, I know a handful of people with very similar stories.
I’ve seen plenty of misogyny here on the threadiverse. It’s not solved just by not using Instagram or TikTok.
Edit: it’s in this very comment section, in fact.
It is everywhere, including irl.
However, I would guess it is more prevalent on Xhitter than here.
Better yet, make a UK-based Mastodon instance “for the children”, keeping it safe from such?
Teens are too stupid to not use it. Most people are too stupid to not use it. I actually see very little wrong with no one under 16 being allowed on any forms of social media. Among all the stuff like this (that I doubt was really written by a 15 year old, and was more likely made by a person or organization trying to get the law to pass) It fucks up how you regulate dopamine and gives you the attention span of a goldfish.
Not true. It actually makes your attention span WORSE than a goldfish! 😞
Read the article instead of the headline ✅👍
Indeed. Not saying that adult women don’t face sexist harassment and that that isn’t a problem to solve, but kids shouldn’t be on social media in the first place. Not to mention that social media is 90% bots anyway. The majority of the blame here falls on the parents.
Why should we police the victims instead of the perps???
Because it’s easier to monitor your children’s use of the internet than to remove dumb men, hateful men, and bots from the internet?
Just because one thing is more difficult to do than another doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be done.
Ban those men and their IP addresses off every social media possible.
It isn’t really that easy to monitor or control one’s children’s use of the internet. They’re smart and can be good at figuring out ways to get what they want; more so as they get older. It’s better to stay aware of what they’re likely exposed to, and talk to them and prepare them to recognize harmful things and avoid them.
Now that you say that… I do agree. But at the same time, I wouldn’t want my daughter to be exposed to gross misoginy in the first place. That kind of thing affects someone deeply, especially teenagers, I think. I wouldn’t want my son to be exposed to it either. Not sure what to do. I’m relieved they are far from reaching that age, yet I’m aware that time will come.
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Yea, fully agree with that.
But until then, don’t leave your children on their own.
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Thanks, I appreciate the tips.
Because it’s easier to monitor your children’s use of the internet than to remove dumb men, hateful men, and bots from the internet?
Is it? One of those groups famously struggles to program video recorders and it ain’t the kids. Teenagers can probably defeat any firewall you set up, including by gaining access to someone else’s wifi or device. So let’s at least try to police the perps instead of their victims.
NO ONE should be on social media in its current state.
Lemmy is social media, too.
The problem isn’t social media. The problem is profit-driven monopolies incentivized to promote high-emotion content. The problem, more generally, is monopolies that no one has hindered since 1974.
“Social media” generally implies an algorithm delivering monotized content, so Lemmy is not true social media.
It is media that is social, but it’s nonetheless very very very different.
We here are not:-).
Well, I’m self aware enough to acknowledge the irony here, but I will say that I’d rather be on Lemmy than reddit.
Plus capitalism is currently being run by a global pedophilia cabal who owns the media, so there’s that as well.
Oh come on, it’s not like the Trump-Epstein files describe meetings with Musk, oh wait… Zuck, oh no, he’s there too… hmmmm.
The majority of the blame here falls on the parents.
The majority? Seriously?
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The age verification debate misses the real point. These commercial algorithms are harmful for everybody.
Using social media has ruined my self-esteem and my relation to being a girl in this world, and nearly every day I feel hatred towards my gender, my appearance, or even teenage boys as a category. The misogyny I see from boys my age online, which is echoed in real life too, has made me grow resentful and bitter towards them, as much as I try to avoid it. As wrong as it is, I persistently find myself considering if there are truly any boys out there who are not misogynistic to some extent, and have even questioned whether I can find love in the future because of this. I understand that boys are victims of harmful content, as well as perpetrators of online misogyny – they’re growing up learning how to do this from the adults who post misogynistic videos first. But even so, I feel such a strong divide now between girls and boys in my generation, especially when the way they talk about us in real life mirrors the way they do on the internet.
That’s fucked up.
That level of misogyny is definitely learned, but it’s not just her age group. I’m floored by (for example) some comments my Dad makes, a “quiet, respectful, classy” type guy who’s never had a Facebook or Insta, who’d you’d never expect to hear insults from. And it’s definitely worse after he watches Fox News… that shit is like a drug.
My school “friends” dropped my jaw, sometimes. They got a lot from their parents, but social media (Faceboook back then) absolutely made it worse.
Even here on Lemmy, the disrespect or casual sexism from commenters sometimes makes me want to throw up. Not that I’m a particularly standup guy or anything, but the longer I live, the more I wonder “the fuck happened to my sex?” I certainly can’t critique this girl for wondering the same thing.
Yeah, I feel like a lot of the people here going “just don’t use social media then” are missing part of the point. Like, as she specifically mentioned, the misogynistic discourse happening online is also happening offline. Even if you yourself manage to avoid most online misogyny by not using social media, you’ll still be exposed to it through everyone else who is and all the people watching and reading stuff like Fox. It’s just kind of everywhere.
Exactly! Precisely. It’s affecting her real life, too.
That “just don’t use social media then” response in itself feels… misogynistic? This isn’t her choice; she can’t ignore the catastrophic effects.
It feels very reminiscent of “well don’t dress like that then”
Yup. And that’s bullshit. It’s way past the time we should be teaching boys how to NOT be misogynistic asswipes.
The thing is, teenage boys learn this behavior from social media. If we had told boys not to use it, they might have not turned out like that.
If misogyny has been around for centuries (and it has) who taught boys back in the 1600’s to be sexist assholes?
It didn’t originate from social media. It started with fathers teaching their sons that they were more important and special than girls were.
“Stop using social media” is probably good advice for everyone, but as you say, its not the solution to the this problem unless literally everyone follows it and even then there is more to do since its not like the internet invented misogyny.
Yeah, it is great advice. But I’m under no illusion that’s happening anytime soon, not for most people.
The context matters. And in this instance “stop using social media” feels more like blaming the abused teenager while the rest of the world carries on, like its totally dismissive of what she’s saying.
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Part of the problem is that it’s a feedback loop. People use social media and somebody makes some misogynistic content which angers people which then gets the algorithm to promote it heavily. Then somebody else who’s inspired by that content makes their own misogynistic content and the cycle repeats. Once enough of that content is circulating it becomes the norm and a bunch of people start dogpiling on it to be part of the in crowd. It’s particularly pernicious when it’s being used to blame people’s problems on others which is how the incel and red pill groups got their start.
It’s not just the girls/women that need to get off these platforms, it’s the boys/men as well. Algorithms that reward anger and controversy are a significant part of the problem and really should be looked at to be regulated the same way gambling and addictive drugs are.
holy shit these comments
lemmy users stop being individualist-brained, victim-blaming misogynists challenge: IMPOSSIBLE
you don’t stop misogyny by just ignoring it you twats, and hot take, mainstream social media being filled with nothing but privileged assholes being bigots (because all the good people were told to just go somewhere else 😇) is not good, actually!
Subheading:
Objectification, hate, rape threats: the politicians debating online abuse mean well, but to truly understand, they need to see what I see
No, they don’t.
Delete TikTok and Instagram for starters.
This is simple advice for an adult who isn’t mired in the drama of high school. For most teens, these apps are how they socialise, how they share information and learn what is cool or uncool. Deleting the apps means you have cut yourself off from the social system and have made yourself a social pariah.
An equivalent for the millennials and gen Xers would be not having Facebook as a teen. It meant not being invited to parties because Facebook was the only platform people used to plan events. No one was going to seek you out individually because it was assumed you were on Facebook and would see the updates.
I agree that social media is harming all of us, but telling teens to just not use it ignores what it was like to be a teenager.
I agree with this sentiment, but fuck do I feel old rn. Myspace was my generation’s Facebook. And it was so much cooler! Custom backgrounds/layouts, and music. Facebook just seems so sterilized in comparison, and it makes me sad.
And even MySpace had ‘Top Friends’ that dictated social hierarchy. For as long as there has been social media, teens have been socially required to interact with it.
I dont agree with it, and would prefer to see all social media burning to the ground, but I understand the situation that teenagers are in.
The situation is that whatever the cool kids are doing is cool. It might be looking at TikTok, it might be not looking at TikTok. It’s going to change depending on where you go and what the cool kids do at that school.
Who knows what’s cool these days. Best advice is to just do what you enjoy and hope for the best. I certainly wouldn’t want to be a teenager all over again. They’re ruthless for no reason. And I wasn’t any better. I’m not proud of it. But that’s why I can tell you, it matters little what you do, it’s all about who does it.
I got little cousins that are much younger than I. And from what I gathered. It’s not much different now.
As someone who was never fond of the concept of social media, and who never had a MySpace or Facebook account as a result when I was in my late teens/early twenties - this hits home for me.
I did it knowingly, but I sure missed out on a lot of stuff that I usually only found out months after.
For a while my friends nicknamed me “the untagable” 🤣, but I guess not having my entire dumb early adulthood saved for eternity is a win in the end.
Facebook didn’t exist when Gen X was in highschool, likely all of them had been through college.
Not sure why you were downvoted, but you’re correct - I’m a late Gen Xer, and Facebook launched several years after I finished grad school - and didn’t become mainstream for another few years.
MySpace was started only one year earlier than Facebook. So, basically, the social media online that I knew before then were forums (like car forums that still exist).
As a Xennial, I still don’t get it because, I guess, I embraced being the weirdo at school and hung out with the weirdos. I was bullied for wearing secondhand uniforms, not wearing doc martens, not having the backpack that everyone has, never having a bf, not talking l33t etc, etc…
I say, take that fall. Embrace destruction and delete the apps. Be the weird analogue kid.
But then again, maybe Australian kids weren’t massive arseholes.
I route my ig through matrix via https://beeper.com/ so I don’t have to open the app, so people can also still dm me.
I was a teen with social media. Not using it is totally valid advice. But simply saying “don’t use it” is like telling a smoker “don’t smoke”
Let me guess the solution before reading the article - some form of weakening to digital privacy.
Yep: “A social media ban for under-16s might prevent young boys seeing endless content that treats women with contempt and hate. Boys at this age are very susceptible to the cool and funny framing of what is, in reality, relentless misogyny. A ban might not fix the problem, but it would help. If society can’t stop it, it can show it disapproves.”
Essentially, this article is an argument to introduce online ID, and I disagree with that on a fundamental level.
The soil misogyny has dug it’s roots into is the iniquity we created while seeking equity. It was done for the best of reasons, but now we see the price. That’s not a problem we can solve easily, and certainly not via creating state spying infrastructure.
We have mostly 50-80 year old Republicans pushing to strip women of rights and somehow misogyny is all the internets fault? This is a deep societal problem that can’t be fixed by internet law.
The internet just lets the terrible people be terrible with some anonymity in doing so. It allows the rancid to hang their butts out for all to see without facing societal consequences. In short, it’s a megaphone for the problems we have.
Word it like that, the guardian has some pretty authoritarian leaning shit.
The main pieces of the article don’t read like fabricated and are possibly genuine; however, the last part about the ban might be an deliberate attempt to manipulate the reader using emotional baggage after reading the main section. It may aswell be injected there by the Guardian, and its probable the author didn’t even think about the bans.
This yet again is ageism in a nutshell. The Guardian has completely invalidated the authors claims, just because they are a minor. This is where humanity is going: misogyny, ageism, and deliberate injection of stories with malicious intent.
We used Fox News to enrage parents who raised kids to be misogynists and racists. We must ban the internet!
Let me guess the solution before reading the article - some form of weakening to digital privacy
What would be your solution to this problem?
Funding education, funding social services, funding mental healthcare. Enforcing existing laws against harassment on big tech.
One of the biggest social media platforms is spamming child porn, they’ve all been proven to be addictive on purpose, and we’re blaming teenage users.
Funding education, funding social services, funding mental healthcare. Enforcing existing laws against harassment on big tech.
That’s a solution that maybe, possibly, will solve the issue 30 years from now (because we need to educate not only the kids, but - most importantly - their parents).
It also doesn’t solve the issue of state (or state-adjacent) actors purposefully spreading content designed to cause disruption and chaos.
One of the biggest social media platforms is spamming child porn, they’ve all been proven to be addictive on purpose, and we’re blaming teenage users.
At least in the context of the article in the OP, and the comment I’m replying to - nobody is blaming anything on anyone. At least I don’t see it.
And yet some politicians say the solution is to ban 15 year olds from social media, rather than police the platforms, algorithms and users. Please contact your representative and ask them to police the platforms, not bring in creepy ID checks.
Never understood how the solution to all platforms going to shit is making users upload their ID. This does neither fix the problem nor the symptom. I mean, I understand why it’s done but not how people come to think this is a good idea.
ID laws are about control. If you can’t post anonymously the govt can track people who don’t agree with them. Or LGBTQ+ people, or whoever the govt doesn’t like.
I mean, I understand why it’s done but not how people come to think this is a good idea.
They are the same people who think “If you have done nothing wrong you have nothing to hide. Only bad people need/want anonymity.” They are also either childless or don’t care about their child’s online access and activity.
people who think “If you have done nothing wrong you have nothing to hide."
I think these people should live in a world without bathroom doors.
A good nearly half of people use authoritarian thinking rather than have to put in effort to think for themselves even slightly.
Sheeple
The whole point of the algorithm is attention. Yeah, they could try to actually police it so coded versions of “kill yourself, ugly bitch” don’t spread, but that language works, and it makes the posters rich.
You can’t get around for “addiction for ad dollars” being the whole point. It’s always going to surface ragebait, trash talk or whatever because that’s what sells attention, no matter how hard it’s fought.
…So yeah. Policing isnt going to do anything. Don’t tell your representatives something that won’t work, and worse, has the “theatre” of helping.
I don’t know a good “solution” other than burning it all to the ground, but honestly, banning as many people as possible sounds like a good idea to me.
You can’t get around for “addiction for ad dollars” being the whole point. It’s always going to surface ragebait, trash talk or whatever because that’s what sells attention, no matter how hard it’s fought.
Yes you can.
Why do you think going after the haters, taking their riches away, booting them offline and possibly imprisoning some of the worst, plus going after the operators of platform that spread hate “isn’t going to do anything”? We’re at the point now where there’s so much hate that it’ll be like shooting fish in a barrel at first.
To a certain degree I agree with the assessment - children (under-16 would be my definition here) shouldn’t have full access to what we consider social media today.
Things were different 10, 20 years ago when it wasn’t so centralised. You’d have independent forums, all with reliable moderation, and so on, plus with little to no ads, and the ad networks themselves were more inclined to not have inappropriate things shown, especially to children - basically all the “make your dick grow 7 foot long” and “8 cock hungry MILFs waiting for you in your area” type of ads were all relegated to porn sites to begin with.
Today? We have centralised social media with little to no moderation beyond basic keyword filtering, ad networks not giving a fuck about the content they push, and every single malicious actor having access to these platforms to further their agendas… Not to mention unfettered access to children by any and all accounts.
What IMO would be the best solution is to force social media sites to have a cordoned off “children” section where kids can socialise with their peers without predatory adults having any form of access to them. But that’s easier said than done, unfortunately.
I mean, old forums were pretty messed up.
Your point stands though. The old internet isn’t what the average person experiences, anymore.
What IMO would be the best solution is to force social media sites to have a cordoned off “children” section where kids can socialise with their peers without predatory adults having any form of access to them. But that’s easier said than done, unfortunately.
In real life, we call this school!
It can definitely be done. It’s not difficult, it’s just that the world is not heading in that direction.
School is not about socialization. Socialization absolutely happens there, but it’s not the primary purpose, and it does not exclude predatory adults. See: the rampant rates of bullying and violence that occur, and get further enabled by faculty who either ignore complaints or both-sides it into victim-blaming.
Kids are not just naturally nice to one-another.Lord of the Flies is still taught in schools for a reason.
No, but it’s still a more isolated environment. There aren’t bunch of ads or grifters or whatever on campus because it at least tries to insulate kids from the outside world profiting off them, and to curate what they experience.
That’s what they need on their phones, too. Lord of the Flies is better than Big Brother.
I guess the difficult part would be to blunt the outside from flooding in, like kids mass reposting Andrew Tate. But at least there would be some control/fairness with exposure, instead of an engagement algorithm ruling their feed.
Lord of the Flies is fiction. It is taught for its artistic merit, not its applicability to the real world.
Screenshot of this Mastodon toot, because I can’t get newlines to work in quoted-text.
How much do you think it’d cost to ‘police the platforms’?
lemmy is only took off because reddit policed it and kicked most of the users here off.
the problem with policing speech and bullying is it’s totally subjective. i used to be told I was a bully for offering people writing suggestions.
lemmy is only took off because reddit policed it and kicked most of the users here off.
Other waves arrived here because reddit kicked all the independent apps off, and started feeding all community discussions to AI.
Less than it’s costing us in lives and damage not to police them!
police the platforms
No thanks. The beauty of social media is the unrestrained assholery. People just need to learn to cope & quit being fragile: skill issue. Education & civic campaigns to promote social good are better approaches respecting our inherent liberties to piss people off.
How do you police someone you can’t identify?
By closing the accounts? Facebook doesn’t need to know who you are in real life to ban you.
Why would Facebook want to have less users?
It wouldn’t. That’s why have to ask politicians to make laws that forces Facebook to do it anyway.
Facebook has a certain level of moderation, as is required by a lot of countries.
But they’re never going to, for example, screen every comment before it gets posted. And politicians basically banning Facebook don’t get many votes
Also, I don’t personally use it but isn’t Facebook one where you’ll only get comments from people you’ve first connected with?
Facebook has a certain level of moderation, as is required by a lot of countries.
Where that level of moderation is negligible and ineffective. It’s a sham.
And politicians basically banning Facebook don’t get many votes
How do we know? Who’s tried it? They’re all scared that facebook will start working against them, as it allegedly has in some referendums and elections.
Also, I don’t personally use it but isn’t Facebook one where you’ll only get comments from people you’ve first connected with?
🤣🤣🤣 No. There’s loads of “promoted” posts in your feed for years now.
I very highly doubt the majority of dudes posting shit like that even use a vpn. Therefore they can be ifentified by IP.
Hell the worst shit you see on Facebook is by people posting under their actual name.
They think it’s now acceptable.
As the others have stated, you don’t need to know them to ban them, but i would also add that a majority post from their real accounts, with their face as a profile picture, with little to no shame.
Outside of this, there needs to be a targeted effort to label and/or ban bots, but those bot accounts drive up user engagement numbers, which drive ad revenue, which makes line go up, so it’s never going to happen. But doing so would limit how far these messages get and reduce foreign (or domestic) influence.
I was gonna say unpopular opinion, but maybe not…
disengage from social media. It is not reality. not only that, but it perpetuates itself, and the oligarchy that created it. Go out and meet people in the real world. This is comming from an autistic person with minimal patients for other people. Seriously, ditch social media; it’s poison, and when it dies (which it will if people like you leave) these toxic peope you encounter will have to face the real world.
I can confirm this. Kill your television rings true.
Social media like everything else takes personal responsibility. I have an IG and it’s full of yummy desserts, puppy videos, my bands and pics of my kids so my parents can see.
It’s up to everyone what they do on social media and what they consume, just like television, don’t just watch porn, Fox News and trash tv, and say it’s TVs fault. It’s a medium like everything else, stay away from the crazies and if you can’t handle it don’t use it
Yep, some is a shitplace, that only shows you very sterotypical things about the world around you, through very disective algorythms. It learns you about how small the world is, how we all are the same. When we are not! Humans are complex individuals the world is huge. That is social medias first lie. But you are in fact all just numbers to them. Social media, reduces us to numbers.
But the social media affect all those people in reality sadly, they normalize this crap and embolden it
The answer is to disengage yourself, and to teach your children AND OTHERS to disengage from social media.
Social media is harmful, advertising is harmful, drugs are harmful, gambling is harmful. This is a question of societal level harm and is is a problem for individual counties, nations, and states to address by the creation and enforcement of law, and for individuals to address by collectively shaming participants.
The problem is not the users who find the content harmful. The problem is with the policies of those platforms and their algorithms.
Still, yes, I also believe mainstream social media now does more harm then good.
This.
I’m convinced it should be illegal to operate social media platforms for profit. It wouldn’t solve all the problems, but it would make a dent.
How dare you ask of parents to parent their kids?!
Let’s speed up online censorship and surveillance capitalism instead!Nope. Read.
“There’s a man screaming in my window and following me around when I leave my house telling me to buy his shit and that I’m his object to play with while I’m just trying to live my life. This harassment is affecting my mental health”
“Nope. Read.”
Idiotic.
collectively shaming participants
That should suffice. Laws/censorship are unnecessary. Stupid opinions on the internet or in society aren’t new.
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Sexual equality has ceased to exist online. It’s absolutely fine for boys to have sex, but when girls do, they are called worthless and referred to as objects.
This isn’t new. I’m a man in my mid 40s and the disparity between how promiscuous men are viewed as compared to promiscuous women has existed for as long as I’ve been sexually aware, and well before.
Obviously that doesn’t make it okay. I also have no idea what the solution might be. There have been a few cultural efforts to normalize the idea of women enjoying and seeking out sex but none of them seem to really reach the people that need to hear it.
I do find it oddly paradoxical that men who make it very clear that they are actively seeking sexual partners would disparage women for being sexually active.
I do find it oddly paradoxical that men who make it very clear that they are actively seeking sexual partners would disparage women for being sexually active.
They don’t want experienced, knowledgable, self-confident partners. They want naive young women they can gaslight and abuse.
They don’t want experienced, knowledgable, self-confident partners. They want naive young women
You’ve obviously never lived with the aftermath of dating worn out, bitter and combative women who have been traumatized by their numerous “experiences.” Men like inexperienced women precisely because they want to mold her and give her her first experiences. Also, “experienced” women are more likely to be single moms.
Boy, this thread is just loaded with reprehensible takes and dudes telling on themselves.
🤮🤮🤮
Let’s take a moment. I want you to understand that the opinion you offered is precisely what the OP article references. More than that, the opinion you offered is factually wrong.
I would like you to hear from me - an anonymous poster - the most likely outcome (of that opinion you offered) is a lonely, sad, and bitter existence for you.
Your preferences for certain kinds of women are yours, and yours alone. I wish you luck in finding a woman that fits your preference. However if you truly believe in that opinion, i strongly recommend seeking professional help.
Your comment actually made me feel sick. Please go re-evaluate where this toxicity in your life has come from.
Hint: it’s not women
Your intolerant ad-hominem post offers no constructive rebuttal of a good-faith argument and should be deleted by the mods.
The audacity and hypocrisy required to accuse others of intolerance after writing such misogynistic claptrap is staggering
Your blithe refusal to engage my constructive rebuttal of your uneducated and intolerant opinion (linked here for your convenience) renders this pearl-clutching statement irrelevant.
My posts are almost always based on logic. I do not engage in insult posts, like you did.
Appeal to the high road. What a child.
Ew
Imagine posting this and thinking it sounded okay.
Experienced men are more likely to be dead beat dads. See how this works?
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I’m a whole cisgendered 30 year old male who games a bit too much, so I try to discourage misogynistic comments when they’re made by people in games.
I think there’s another layer to the misogyny where any form of “defending” women is seen as white-knighting or simping. You don’t even have to be directly referring to comments about a specific person, but you’ll still be labeled as a loser who likes women, for some reason.
Dont defend, it doesnt do shit. Clown the person talking about it. Its easy to get a dogpile going if you are obviously wittier than them and much more effective in getting them to knock it off
Unironically this. Yesterday I told a skinhead I didn’t wanna see his “white lives matter” shirt again, and when he asked why not in the most shitlordy tone imaginable, my blunt reply of “it’s loser shit” put him in his place way better than any drawn out debate about the history and semantics of race ever would have done. These dweebs rely not on any sort of moral truth but on the aesthetic of strength, which is why it’s always important to deny them that and hammer home just how much reactionaries are in reality just pathetic (often overgrown) boys whom everybody knows to be insufferable.
It’s not only misogyny.
Social media absolutely removes the inhibitions of just about all kinds of assholes, builds pat-each-other-on-the-back support groups for them by putting them together with like minded assholes and then algorithmically shovels all that shit on everybody else because anything that elicits strong emotions means more clicks and anger from being offended is one such emotion.
By the way, this also applies to unhealthy gender expectations on males (including misandry), though this being The Guardian I expect this is about the UK, which IMHO (having lived there and also elsewhere in Europe) is a country with serious problems when it comes to gender expectations around women and insidious “benevolent” sexism (“benevolent” not because it’s good but because it follows the whole “women are fragile creatures” and subsequent subtle disemplowering of women “to protect them” or because “they’re emotional creatures”) which far too often taints the articles in The Guardian because they’re very much from the British upper-middle class Acceptable Feminism, which tends to underestimate the strength of women and favor “protection” “solutions” over empowerment and agency.
So whilst I absolutely believe in all of this and in misogyny online being very bad, especially in certain countries, the choice of focusing on misogyny rather than as a whole in the problem of social media’s Profit Driven amplification of societal dysfunctions in general, is very much a typical privileged British Upper Middle Class “Third Wave Feminist” perspective and choice.
Social media absolutely removes the inhibitions of just about all kinds of assholes, builds pat-each-other-on-the-back support groups for them by putting them together with like minded assholes and then algorithmically shovels all that shit on everybody else because anything that elicits strong emotions means more clicks and anger from being offended is one such emotion.
I was an early Facebook user. I had an account from 2007-2018. The early years it seemed fun and Fairly innocent. I kept up with friends and saw funny posts. I could curate my feed to be things I wanted to see. When I left Facebook in 2018 it seems like the app was targeting me. Showing me things to rile me up. First I quit the mobile app. I deleted it and used a browser. Then I left Facebook altogether. A year ago I did a similar thing with Instagram. It was no longer a place curated to my interests. It’s horrible. I barely touch it anymore. Even Reddit is not my usual collection of posts that interests me. It’s why I’m on here! Everything is just so polarizing now. I have been able to cut way back and do my own thing. But at 15 friends are your world. Everyone is using the app. Everyone is speaking the speak. It’s so hard for them to disconnect.
What’s interesting is that in the early online days, there was still a lot of misogyny. In the early days of Friendster / Myspace there were a lot more guys online than girls. By the time Facebook started to come around, being online was more of a normal thing, so there were more women and girls online. But, at least at the beginning, the feeds were smaller (mostly just posts from friends) and tended not to be algorithmic. It was a timeline, not a feed.
So, there was a bit of a golden period when all young people were starting to go online, so it wasn’t just a small, male-dominated space any more. There also weren’t algorithmic feeds yet, or influencers, and nowhere near the level of surveillance-based advertising. These days the big social media companies feel that their audience is locked in, and have nowhere to go, so they’re squeezing them, trying to extract as much value as possible.
If you’re a 15-year-old girl your options are really being ostracized by the other teens for not using the apps, or using the apps and dealing with all that shit. I don’t know if being a teen girl has ever been a wonderful experience. But, I sure wouldn’t want to be one right now.
By the time Facebook started to come around, being online was more of a normal thing, so there were more women and girls online.
Well, yes, that’s why Zuck started Facemash, to let him and his pals rate the faces of those people.
feeling disheartened and unhappy about being a girl. When nearly every comments section on a video of a girl my age is filled with disgusting and objectifying comments about her body from boys, it causes me to feel deeply uncomfortable in my own body, and compare myself to her
this hits home for me. I have a near 14 year old daughter and this is the struggle I see with her constantly.
It’s not that she’s particularly non-binary/trans/androgynous, it’s that she’s ashamed/embarrassed to be a girl or be perceived as one. She still likes many traditional feminine things, (ie hair/nails/makeup, romance novels, cutesy characters, etc), and she has no real desire for any kind of masculine interests…
It’s as though being a woman is inferior. It’s “girly”. And that’s what is being internalized. And part of that, I think, is also the culture’s post-ironic loathing for authenticity. Ala, being passionate or earnestly enjoying something is seen as being “cringe”. So, being a girl, who likes girly things, is cringe.
I think both of these things ratchet the internalized misogyny. With the former being what turns the ratchet.
